Ken Rosenthal passes along an interesting lil’ tidbit from former Padres and current Arizona Diamondbacks GM Kevin Towers. If this was a quote from an anonymous scout I would just call it one man’s opinion and not give it a second look, but Towers is well known in baseball circles for his expertise on pitching. Doesn’t mean he’s always right, just that his opinion is a bit more noteworthy than most. He also spent last year working with the Yanks as a special consultant scouting the Yankee farm system, so he’s seen plenty of the Yankee farmhands. Here’s what he said:
• Diamondbacks GM Kevin Towers, who spent last season scouting with the Yankees, offers yet another ringing endorsement for the Yanks’ top pitching prospects — and actually likes right-hander Dellin Betances even better than lefty Manny Banuelos.
Betances, 6-foot-8 and 245 pounds, “might be King Felix,” Towers says.
Banuelos?
“Teddy Higuera in his prime,” Towers says, “but with a better arm.”
High praise in both cases. King Felix needs no introduction, but for those of you who don’t recall Teddy Higuera, he was akin to Banuelos in that he was a lefty from Mexico with a similar build (5′ 10″ 178 lb) and repertoire (fastball/change) who pitched for the American League version of the Milwaukee Brewers in the 1980s. In his prime, he was an outstanding pitcher. He was 2nd in Rookie of the Year voting in 1985, 2nd in Cy Young voting and an All-Star in 1986, posting an ERA+ of 156 that season. He averaged 7.2 WAR over a 3 year span from 1986-88. His best season was arguably 1988, where he went 16-9 with an ERA+ of 162 and posted a WHIP of 0.999, though for some reason he didn’t garner any CY Young consideration that year. It’s also worth noting that Higuera started breaking down in his late 20′s. He had back surgery at age 29 after his fine 1988 season, pitched well for a few years thereafter and then blew out his rotator cuff in 1991. That pretty much ended his career as an effective pitcher at age 32. When you hear people reference concerns about Baneulos’ size, its because baseball is littered with stories like this of smallish starters breaking down around that age. But as Yankee fans, we can only hope that Banuelos has a career similar to that of Teodoro Valenzuela Higuera.
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17 Responses to Towers: Betances Best of the B’s
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Yup I would be thrilled to see ManBan develop into Teddy Higuera – or another similar LH fastball/change pitcher of small stature who pitches, when healthy, in Queens…..
And despite the concerns on size, the Yanks are getting Banuelos at a much younger age. Higuera didn’t start pitching in MLB until age 26. When he was young and healthy, Teddy was a terrific pitcher.
I so agree. If you could guarantee me Banuelos=Higuera I’d take it right now! I remember him well!
Have some doubts on the King Felix comp. but I’ll take 85% of the King.
The stuff is similar for Felix and Betances, Felix probably came up throwing a little harder on a consistent basis but they both have nasty curves and plus velocity. I understand the comp Physically, I don’t think he was trying to imply King Felix like results though.
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And what about all the tall pitchers that broke down in there first few seasons. That tall=durable is an old wives tale. There are numerous SP that are 6’1 and 6’2, and they have no injury concerns? I find it difficult that two inches in height can mean the difference in a 10yr or 15 yr career. I also see it as a sample size bias in modern era (1970′s to now)fewer short pitchers are being taken, so when any of them go down its seen as a durability issue, yet since there is a larger sample of tall pitchers and they go down its not questioned.
Besides in the past most pitchers were short, and they were handling loads far more in 5 years than a work horse like CC has done in 10
Less shorter pitchers are taken for a reason… It’s not like they only get taken in special scenario’s because people hate short people, they simply don’t handle the strain as well as a bigger body. As you pointed out nothing guarantees protection from injury but being smaller doesn’t help. This doesn’t mean pitchers like Lincecum and Johan Santana don’t exist but if you watch guys like Santana start breaking down early, he is already down to the high 80′s at this point and the injuries are piling up. Even if you look at Tim his velocity is already starting to fall and he wasn’t nearly the same stuff wise thise year as he was in his first Cy Young season.
There is no proof for that their never has been definitive proof. It just confirms a bias, look at the top 20 in innings pitched, most of them are not tall yet were able to throw 4000+ innings. It makes no sense that someone who is 6’1 or 6’2 (Players like Madison Bumgarner, Jeremy Hellickson, or established vets like Zack Greinke never had that label placed on them despite all being just 6’1) is automatically not a health risk yet someone who is 2-3 inches shorter is thought to be some kind of delicate flower?
Madison Bumgarner is listed at 6-4 to 6-5 and between 215 and 227 pounds where are you getting 6’1?
Greinke is listed at 6’2 192 I’d say there is a pretty big difference in that and 5’10 say 165, because unless we are having a combine it’s likely neither is actually that tall and Banuelos may be closer to 5’9 than he is 5’10.
Roy Halladay 250 IP- 6’6 230
Felix Hernandez 249 IP- 6’3 225
CC Sabathia 237 IP- 6’7 295
Chris Carpenter 235 IP- 6’6 230
Adam Wainwright 230 IP- 6’7 230
Tim Hudson- 228 IP- 6’1 175
Justin Verlander 224 IP- 6’5 225
Brett Myers 223 IP- 6’4 240
Matt Cain 223 IP- 6’3 245
Ervin Santana 222 IP- 6’2 185
Ubaldo Jimenez 221 IP- 6’4 215
Carl Pavano 221 IP- 6’5 250
Zach Greinke 220 IP- 6’2 192
Bronson Arroyo 215 IP- 6’4 195
Randy Wolf 215 IP- 6’0 200
Ryan Dempster 215 IP- 6’2 215
John Lackey 215 IP- 6’6 245
John Danks 213 IP- 6’2 210
Cliff Lee 212 IP- 6’3 190
(all heights and weights from baseball reference so multiple sites weren’t confusing heights)
I know you are talking all time but this is the top 20 list of innings pitched last year and not one of them is below 6’0, the only one who is 6 foot flat is Randy Wolf (who in reality is probably 5’11) of the rest of the list 13 of 20 are over 6’3, and all but 2 in the top 10 are 6’3 or bigger including the entire top 5.
The game is bigger today and today’s athlete throws much harder than he once did, you really think Pud Galvin (5’8) was nailing 96 on the gun like Banuelos?
Thanks for the correction I meant Hellickson who is 6’1
but there is a huge difference between throwing 200 innings and 300+ yet these guys were able to do it and were doing it at far younger ages. There are more tall pitchers in the current MLB so it doesn’t surprise me that there are more on the leader boards.
the length of one’s bones doesn’t mean anything. Conditioning, mechanics,and flexibility are what are best. Velocity is brought through the lower half and core, good mechanics allow the brunt of those heavy stresses that should be hitting the arm to instead be absorbed by the legs. It makes little sense how someone 2-3 inches taller. Also in Banuelos latest appearance there is video of him next to Joe Girardi (listed at 5’11) and Manny actually close in and maybe slightly taller than the skipper.
Juat to add some facts to the discussion:
1) Most short people (under 6 ft tall) are pussies and the majority are probably gay too, so the incidence of AIDS is higher and their careers are shorter.
2) The pitching mounds were lowered 5 to 10 inches to a standardized 10 inches in 1969, meaning most short people faced the daunting task of losing that extra height advantage that tall people have now by birth. Many of them can’t reach the plate without that extra 5 to 10 inch hill, and as such, don’t get picked to pitch. They typically get signed as ballboys and batboys and clubhouse attendants.
3) Short pitchers have a higher frequency of leg problems due to their wearing high heels off the playing field.
4) Because they are shorter, they don’t have the natural downhill slope of their pitches–which give the taller pitchers an advantage. As a result,t hey have to throw harder and hurt their arms more.
5) Most short people are also stupid and also very touchy and grumpy about their height and being made fun of. Typically one or two will complain about a post like this one for no reason other than tey are short and stupid.
6) Randy Newman–a fine judge of human character–hates them. Even wrote a song about it,
7) Actually, nobody really likes them.
The above was obviously a joke….except for numbers 1-7.or something like that…Actually discount any pitching performances before 1969 when mounds were higher if you want to argue honestly about the issue.
No one knows exactly why pitchers break down or what causes it exactly but we have seen enough smaller pitchers have shortened careers due to injury to infer that their bodies don’t hold up as well, it’s all circumstantial obviously.
Actually there is A LOT of good work and thought on why pitchers break down. Check out
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=kurkjian_tim&id=4359938
I understand that there is research on why certain pitchers have broken down and plenty of people have their own opinions and guess work as well but no one can say for pitcher will get hurt and pitcher z won’t, we simply don’t know enough about it. Guys go years with terrible mechanics and never get hurt and on the other side guys with pristine mechanics blow their arms off.
No one knows how big a role genetics plays apart in it and no one knows who has the kind of genetics that make them more immune or prone to injury, there are so many factors at play with something like this if anyone says they know why pitchers get injured and breakdown in general is lying.
It’s certainly not a perfect science YET…but I think some truths apply..
1) All pitchers will eventually break down–just a metter of time
2) Some can come back after injury better than others…the effects of PEDs in doing so in the 90s is unknown
3) Pitchers over 30 are on borrowed time now that PEDs are outlawed
4) The best case is to get pitchers while they are young and cheap and bring them along as quickly as possible and yet gradually….until they build up to 200 innings at age 25…ride them like cheap mules from 25 to 30 and then don’t sign long term deals with them.
5) Keep investing in the pipeline to keep a supply of replacement parts.(inventory)
Focus on pitches that don’t damage the arm—2 and 4 seam fastballs, curves, change ups, cutters. Avoid splitters and in many cases sliders. Avoid screw balls…
Get tall pitches who have a greater downward plane
Get pitchers who can throw over 95 mph
Instruct, instruct, instruct….