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He is, according to David Schoenfield of ESPN.com. He argues that if you consider all facets of the game and weigh longevity heavily, Jeter edges out players such as Cal Ripken, Arky Vaughan, and Barry Larkin, with only Honus Wagner finishing ahead of Jeter. A few months ago, I tackled this issue by looking simply at offense, and this is what I found:
Honus Wagner:
Career Numbers: .327/.391/.466 OPS+: 150
5 best (full) years by OPS+: 205, 187, 186, 176, 175Joe Cronin:
Career Numbers: .301/.390/.468 OPS+: 119
5 best years by OPS+: 138, 136, 135, 129, 127Arky Vaughan:
Career Numbers: .318/.406/.453 OPS+: 136
5 best years by OPS+: 190, 149, 148, 146, 140Lou Boudreau:
Career Numbers: .295/.380/.415 OPS+: 120
5 best years by OPS+: 164, 145, 133, 131, 128Cal Ripken:
Career Numbers: .276/.340/.447 OPS+: 112
5 best years by OPS+: 162, 145, 144, 143, 128Derek Jeter:
Career Numbers: .317/.387/.459 OPS+: 121
5 best years by OPS+: 153, 132, 128, 127, 126One note: Looking at 5 best seasons by OPS+ does not exactly do Jeter justice, as much of his value is caught up in his consistency. His 6-10 best years are likely better than those years for most of the players on this list. That being said, I think we can reach a few conclusions.
1) Honus Wagner is the best hitting SS of all time, and Arky Vaughan is second.
2) Cal Ripken stuck around way too long, and his decline was substantial enough to knock him out of the top 5 in terms of offensive value.
3) Jeter is right there in the next group with Boudreau and Cronin, rounding out the top 5, and an argument can be made for Jeter as #3 if you place career value over peak.
Conclusion: Among players who remained at SS for the bulk of their careers, Derek Jeter is no higher than 3rd but is likely no lower than 5th (unless I missed somebody) in terms of hitting. Next time somebody tells you he would be a borderline star if he played in KC, tell him to do some research.
I placed Jeter third offensively, but this did not take longevity into account, and focused more upon peak than career value. Schoenfield argues convincingly that Jeter should be ahead of Vaughan, due to Vaughan only having 11 full seasons at SS, and Jeter likely to end up with 18 or so. However, when defense enters the equation, I think Jeter loses some value, such that he is likely to be neck and neck with Ripken by the end of his career. For now, I would have Jeter 4th, behind Wagner, Ripken, and Vaughan, with the chance to move up to 2nd.
Where would you place Jeter?
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9 Responses to Is Jeter The Second Best SS OF All TIme?
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TIQ IQ
Jeter is number ONE…he helped his team win FIVE World Series championships…more than any of the other players mentioned…It is the ultimate defining statistic.
Jeter had great players with him. He didnt win them on his own, and the gap between him and Wagner is huge.
So is Robert Horry better than Michael Jordan? By your ultimate defining statistic he is, especially since an individual basketball player has more control over his team winning a title than a baseball player.
Have to go with Moshe on this one. Wagner is and has been excepted as the greatest SS of all time.
Jeter has been very good over many years but, not in the same league with Wagner.
Well, I guess we’re not going to count A-Rod in this equation…but his SS numbers are better than any. If he had stuck around at SS, it’d be pretty obvious that was the best.
Moshe,
I think Jeter is the best of all time. His offensive stats, nominally a hair behind Wagner’s, are actually far more impressive when you control for the fact that Wagner played in an era where there were no african american or Latin American pitchers. The pitching talent simply wasn’t as good back then.
How could you do a comparison based on peak years as a SS and not include Arod?
Alex has three seasons with 160 OPS+
Another season with a 158 OPS+
and to round out his top five he has a 147 OPS+
Arod clearly is second behind Wagner as having the best five offensive years at SS.
As I said in the original article, I was only considering players who played the bulk of their career at SS. That eliminated players such as A-Rod, Banks, and Yount.
I will not argue about who is better, like a lot of baseball…it is subjective. Back in Wagner’s day they didn’t have the gloves, bats, meds and surgeries. Most (almost all) of the players had jobs in the off season etc.
Wagner had about 18 years of consistent .320 to .350+ hitting and played 22 (I think) years. That is one heck of a long time to be among the leaders every year.