First off, congrats to Barry Larkin. He should’ve been inducted last year anyway, but whatever. He’s in the Hall of Fame now and that’s what matters. After the jump, I’m going to do a little bit of Hall of Fame griping. I know a lot of you have stopped caring about the results of any sort of awards or HOF voting and I keep trying to sway myself to that side, but for whatever reason, I just can’t. There’s going to be data below that’ll feature four pitchers (I tried to do a table, but it was just too big). There will be a lot of categories for each pitcher and the leader in each category will be bolded. One pitcher will be Jack Morris, who got about 67% of the vote this year and will almost undoubtedly make it next year. The other three will include a pitcher who is already off the ballot and two who will likely be off the ballot after their first years. I’ll leave their names off and allow you guys to guess in the comments. Click through for the rest.
Jack Morris: 3824 IP; 105 ERA+; 97 FIP- ; 1.296 WHIP; 8.4 H/9; 0.9 HR/9; 3.3 BB/9; 5.8 K/9; 1.78 K/BB; 39.3 bWAR; 2.01 bWAR/200 IP; 56.9 fWAR; 2.98 fWAR/200 IP; 2 seasons of 5+ fWAR; 1 season of 5+ bWAR; ranked 4th in fWAR during career; ranked 17th in bWAR during career.
Mystery Pitcher A: 2840 IP; 105 ERA+; 88 FIP-; 1.249 WHIP; 8.8 H/9; 1.2 HR/9; 2.4 BB/9; 8.0 K/9; 3.32 K/BB; 39.4 bWAR; 2.77 bWAR/200 IP; 55.2 fWAR; 3.89 fWAR/200 IP; 5 seasons of 5+ fWAR; 4 seasons of 5+ bWAR; ranked 7th in fWAR during career; ranked 12th in bWAR during career.
Mystery Pitcher B: 3256 IP; 127 ERA+; 79 FIP-; 1.222 WHIP; 8.5 H/9; 0.6 HR/9; 2.5 BB/9; 6.6 K/9; 2.66 K/BB; 64.8 bWAR; 3.98 bWAR/200 IP; 77.2 fWAR; 4.74 fWAR/200 IP; 7 seasons of 5+ fWAR; 6 seasons of 5+ bWAR; ranked 5th in fWAR during career; ranked 6th in bWAR during career.
Mystery Pitcher C: 1960.1 IP; 105 ERA+; 93 FIP-; 1.322 WHIP; 8.2 H/9; 0.9 HR/9; 3.8 BB/9; 8.2 K/9; 2.17 K/BB; 22.2 bWAR; 2.27 bWAR/200 IP; 33.2 fWAR; 3.34 fWAR/200 IP; 2 seasons of 5+ fWAR; 0 seasons of 5+ bWAR; ranked 26th in fWAR during career; ranked 47th in bWAR during career.
Your hints: Pitchers A and C pitched in MLB last year.
If you enjoyed this article, please consider sharing it!
10 Responses to After the Fact HOF Griping
Leave a Reply
TIQ IQ
Is Livan Hernandez one of them?
Nope. I just cheated and found out the answers.
Pitcher A is an interesting comparison. It’s amazing how much perception can change based on the media.
I don’t blame the media for the perception of pitcher A. He did a good job for himself.
Yes, I cheated too.
Morris is the definition of a slippery slope candidate.
Javy just happened to have his two worst seasons in the biggest market.
Mystery pitcher C is AJ Burnett. Mystery pithcer B is Kevin Brown. A is Homer Javy. What do all 4 pitchers have in common? All should buy a ticket at the door when visiting Cooperstown.
Pitcher C has to be AJ Burnett.
Larkin should not have been inducted into the HOF, and let me say he was one of my favorite non-Yankees, so anyone who thinks this is a “Bash Barry Larkin” post, stuff it.
He got in only because he came after Smith and Ripken Jr., before Vizquel and Jeter, and let’s be honest:
Is Larkin a HOF if he started his career when Ripken Jr. or Jeter did? NO. Had he started his career when either did, he would’ve been seen as a poor man’s version of Ripken Jr./Jeter, not an equal or a challenger for the top spot at the position. People would’ve said “Larkin’s a good player but he’s no Ripken Jr. / he’s no Jeter.” and you know it.
Was Larkin as good a defensive SS as Smith or Vizquel? NO.
Two modern-day shortstops who were bigger run producers and two who were better glovemen than Larkin, and Larkin’s in the HOF. C’mon.
I never knew the Hall Of Fame was the Hall Of Guys Who Had Very Good Careers.
2340 hits and two homeruns shy of 200 in 19 seasons is consistent but unremarkable (123.16 hits and 10.42 HR a year.)
Larkin had a very good career for a SS, but outside of him helping the ’90 Reds win it all, his NLMVP year where he posted a .319 BA but only 15 HR and 66 RBI in a not too strike-shortened season (I’d say a pretty weak year for NLMVP candidates a la 1988), and a year he smacked 33 HR, his seasons were nice at best.
.295/.371/.444 is an impressive slashline but he lacked power, didn’t drive in many runs, and didn’t even have a ton of 100 or more run seasons.
The more the Os suck, the bigger Ripken Jr’s legacy grows. Jeter will most likely finish with over 1000 more hits than Larkin and I’m sorry, “Why’d they let in Barry Larkin?” will be a valid question when Jeter’s career is over.
Also since Larkin was inducted into the HOF, Vizquel has to be for all his Gold Gloves and 2800+ hits and counting as I think he’ll be back with someone next year, because that is just as impressive as Larkin’s career if not more. ‘Thing is, is Vizquel really a HOF, too?
I guess Larkin’s legacy is he was the next great shortstop after Smith and Jeter before Jeter, but when you invoke the name of players who came before and after Larkin, how can Larkin be a true HOF? Where’s his identity outside of being a Red? Smith, Ripken Jr., and Jeter transcend their uniforms. As much as I liked Larkin, I can’t say the same about him. While Pete Rose is most likely as infamous as he is famous, he will forever transcend his Reds uniform for way more reasons besides his gambling starting with his career before he became a gambling addict not someone who intentionally, maliciously besmirched the honesty and integrity of the game.
And that brings me to the elephant in the room no one has talked about with a Red being inducted: Larkin’s in, WHEN DOES PETE ROSE GET IN? Isn’t it time MLB forgives Rose? 4256 career hits, lived his nickname “Charlie Hustle”. The man made ONE mistake. Lemme tell you something: ALL OF YOU, ALL OF US have made at least one major mistake in our lives and I bet none of us have had to pay for it the past 22 years or more (for those who made their mistake 22 years ago or longer.) Pete Rose was and may still /always will be a gambling addict who (I think) in his heart of hearts did not intend to harm the integrity of the game. He deserves a second chance like everyone short of a cold-blooded murderer does (murder is the unforgivable act to me.) Dwight Gooden and Keith Hernandez did coke which means they dealt with coke dealers who either killed someone or worked with someone who killed over the stuff, no one banned Doc and Keef from baseball for life. The Chicago White Sox threw the 1919 World Series, yet the owner wasn’t banned from baseball along with the players who were banned. Why not ban the man at the top since wasn’t Comiskey supposed to pull the reigns in on his players? Maybe he was in on the fix and what a perfect participant as who would EVER suspect an owner would be in on his own team losing the World Series?
Back to Larkin. When I think of Ozzie Smith, I do not think of Vizquel for a second even though Vizquel was the AL version of him. When I think of Ripken Jr., I don’t think of Jeter for a second. Smith and Ripken Jr. were their own entities, and I’d say Jeter and Vizquel are to.
Larkin just seems to be too much of a middle of the road / hybrid of the other four shortstops guy for me to think he should be in the HOF. A little bit of Smith and Vizquel (Gold Gloves), a little bit of Jeter (BA and OBP), an a little bit of Jeter and Ripken Jr. (winner, consistency and face of the franchise.)
To conclude I will say this: if I could remove one guy from the HOF, it would be that got in on one big hit all-glove no-bat schmuck Mazerowski and replace him with Larkin.
“A little bit of Smith and Vizquel (Gold Gloves), a little bit of Jeter (BA and OBP), an a little bit of Jeter and Ripken Jr. (winner, consistency and face of the franchise.)”
Is that such a bad thing, though? Bill James described him as one of the most well-rounded players in baseball history. I think that fits. No one complained when Alomar got in. Larkin is Alomar at a more valuable position. Certainly he wasn’t the hitter Jeter was (not quite) or the fielder Vizquel was (I think Vizquel is terribly overrated, though). Cal Ripken and Alex Rodriguez are the only two shorstops in recent memory I could possibly put in both categories. But Larkin comes close and that’s what made him such a great player.
Pete Rose doesn’t get in, ever. There is one clear rule which is hung in every clubhouse, and it preached to the players every spring training. DO NOT BET ON BASEBALL. He knew that rule and he broke it. He made his own bed.
Vizquel is the ultimate stat compiler. Throw out gold gloves because we all know how worthless they are.
I think I’ve reached the point where I’m tired of the HOF process. I enjoy a good debate, even the repetitive fight of saberist vs. traditionalist. However the morality police, and the fight against steroids have reached the breaking point for me. Why won’t people just acknowledge the HOF is a damn museum. Put in the best players and let the fans of the game judge them for what they did or didn’t do.
Also I understand the criteria for voting (10 plus years covering the game) but there is a ton of dead weight that shouldn’t be voting anymore. Too many people who barely cover the game anymore get to vote, and it seems like they don’t know what the hell they are doing. Take Rick Carpiniello who covers the NY Rangers for lohud. He voted for Mattingly, and that’s it. At that point, he shouldn’t be voting anymore, especially since he doesn’t even cover baseball.
I honestly don’t have a solution on what to do, as I’m still not a huge fan of small groups deciding like football does or the veterans committee, but having people who clearly don’t know much abuot baseball vote is a disgrace.