(The following is being syndicated from The Captain’s Blog).
Jesus Montero’s major league debut on September 1 was one of the most anticipated arrivals in recent Yankees’ history. So much had been written and said about the 21-year old catcher that his promotion at the beginning of the month almost felt like a second coming. What’s more, the early returns have seemed to justify the heightened expectations. Although Montero may not be a “savior”, with an impressive line of .353/.450/.706 in 20 big league plate appearances, he could be on his way to becoming the most impactful September call-up in recent memory.
Montero's promotion served as the symbolic end to Posada's Yankee career.
Montero’s ascension to a semi-regular role all but marks the end of Jorge Posada’s time in pinstripes. Although the veteran is likely to crack the lineup a few more times before the month runs out, it’s increasingly looking as if he won’t be a part of the post season roster. If so, Posada’s Yankees career will end just as it started: as a cheerleader on the bench during October.
When the Yankees signed Montero as a 16-year old in 2006, Posada was still an All Star catcher. In fact, in 2007, he had the best season of his career. Nonetheless, when Posada was given a four-year extension after that successful campaign, the overwhelming expectation was the new contract would lead right into the Montero era. As things turned out, when the kid was promoted to replace the veteran, it was as a DH, not a catcher, but still, the transition’s symbolism is clear.
The rapidly approaching end to Posada’s pinstripe tenure has been mostly overshadowed by the early brilliance of Montero’s burgeoning big league career. Although excitement about the “next best thing” is certainly justified, Yankees’ fan shouldn’t be quick to cast aside Posada without first realizing they are saying goodbye to a potential Hall of Famer.
Although some might dispute the notion of Posada as Cooperstown worthy, his credentials are compelling. Unfortunately for the Yankees’ backstop, his career happened to coincide with arguably the greatest offensive (Mike Piazza) and defensive (Ivan Rodriguez) catchers to ever play the game, so it’s easy to see why he is sometimes overlooked in Hall-related discussions. Despite these formidable contemporaries, however, Posada’s statistical record still stands out.
During the 20-year period from 1990 to 2010, Posada’s OPS+ of 123 ranks second only to Piazza’s 142 (among players with at least 1,000 games, two-thirds of which were as a catcher). The same is true for his wRC+ and wOBA. Based on more traditional stats, Posada also distinguished himself during the period, ranking tied for first in on base percentage and third in home runs and RBIs. In addition, Posada has won five silver sluggers as a catcher, the fourth highest total amassed at the position.
Comparing Catchers, 1990-2010
| Player | OPS+ | wOBA | wRC+ | G | PA | HR | RBI | BA | OBP | SLG |
| Mike Piazza | 142 | .389 | 140 | 1912 | 7745 | 427 | 1335 | .380 | .377 | .545 |
| Jorge Posada | 123 | .369 | 125 | 1714 | 6763 | 261 | 1021 | .275 | .377 | .479 |
| Victor Martinez | 121 | .360 | 120 | 1004 | 4224 | 131 | 638 | .300 | .369 | .469 |
| Javy Lopez | 112 | .352 | 111 | 1503 | 5793 | 260 | 864 | .287 | .337 | .491 |
| Ivan Rodriguez | 107 | .344 | 104 | 2499 | 10133 | 309 | 1313 | .298 | .334 | .466 |
| Todd Hundley | 102 | .328 | 99 | 1225 | 4305 | 202 | 599 | .234 | .320 | .443 |
| Mike Lieberthal | 101 | .338 | 100 | 1212 | 4695 | 150 | 610 | .274 | .337 | .446 |
| Mike Macfarlane | 101 | .335 | 99 | 1017 | 3619 | 123 | 466 | .252 | .324 | .440 |
| Terry Steinbach | 100 | .327 | 97 | 1184 | 4553 | 128 | 592 | .269 | .324 | .424 |
| Jason Varitek | 99 | .337 | 99 | 1478 | 5589 | 182 | 721 | .258 | .343 | .436 |
Note: Includes players with at least 1,000 games played and two-thirds of that total as a catcher.
Source: Baseball-reference.com and fangraphs.com
Although some catchers, such as Joe Mauer, have had better rates over a shorter horizon, Posada’s longevity is also a feather in his cap. In the 20-year span under consideration, only four others have started more games behind the plate, which is remarkable considering how slowly the Yankees eased him into the lead role.
Defensive metrics are relatively unreliable in general, but for catchers, they are severely limited. For that reason, it’s likely that Hall of Fame voters will rely on defensive reputation. Because of how rapidly his catching skills declined at the end of his career, that might seem like a liability for Posada, but during his prime, the backstop was often regarded as being an above average defender. When the totality of his game is considered, Posada probably still takes a back seat to Piazza and Rodriguez, but even being mentioned along with those names is a Hall of Fame credential.
I see vintage Jorge Posada, everything we expect. He’s one of the best catchers in baseball and he has been. He’s an offensive and defensive catcher. This is what I expect, this is what he is and this is what he’s been. This guy is going to go down as one of the famous Yankee catchers, along with Yogi Berra, Bill Dickey, Elston Howard and Thurman Munson.” – Brian Cashman, quoted in the New York Daily News, August 8, 2006
Jorge Posada vs. Hall of Fame Catchers and Likely Inductees
| Player | OPS+ | wOBA | G | G/C | PA | HR | RBI | BA | OBP | SLG |
| Mike Piazza | 142 | 0.389 | 1912 | 1630 | 7745 | 427 | 1335 | .308 | .377 | .545 |
| M. Cochrane | 128 | 0.411 | 1482 | 1451 | 6206 | 119 | 832 | .320 | .419 | .478 |
| Bill Dickey | 127 | 0.394 | 1789 | 1708 | 7060 | 202 | 1209 | .313 | .382 | .486 |
| Johnny Bench | 126 | 0.361 | 2158 | 1742 | 8669 | 389 | 1376 | .267 | .342 | .476 |
| G. Hartnett | 126 | 0.390 | 1991 | 1793 | 7297 | 236 | 1179 | .297 | .370 | .489 |
| Ernie Lombardi | 126 | 0.341 | 1853 | 1544 | 6349 | 190 | 990 | .306 | .358 | .460 |
| R. Bresnahan | 126 | 0.374 | 1438 | 974 | 5355 | 26 | 527 | .279 | .386 | .377 |
| Yogi Berra | 125 | 0.341 | 2120 | 1699 | 8364 | 358 | 1430 | .285 | .348 | .482 |
| R. Campanella | 123 | 0.327 | 1215 | 1183 | 4816 | 242 | 856 | .276 | .360 | .500 |
| Jorge Posada | 121 | 0.367 | 1818 | 1573 | 7120 | 274 | 1061 | .273 | .374 | .475 |
| Carlton Fisk | 117 | 0.354 | 2499 | 2226 | 9853 | 376 | 1330 | .269 | .341 | .457 |
| Gary Carter | 115 | 0.341 | 2295 | 2056 | 9019 | 324 | 1225 | .262 | .335 | .439 |
| I. Rodriguez | 106 | 0.343 | 2539 | 2424 | 10263 | 311 | 1332 | .296 | .333 | .464 |
| Rick Ferrell | 95 | 0.351 | 1884 | 1806 | 7072 | 28 | 734 | .281 | .378 | .363 |
| Ray Schalk | 83 | 0.321 | 1762 | 1727 | 6217 | 11 | 594 | .253 | .340 | .316 |
Note: Likely inductees include Mike Piazza and Ivan Rodriguez.
Source: Baseball-reference.com and fangraphs.com
There are currently 12 primary catchers elected to the Hall of Fame, making it the most underrepresented position on the diamond. However, even despite this very select company, Posada’s career totals still figure prominently among catchers already enshrined or almost certain to be. In the chart below, Posada’s relative rankings in several offensive categories are provided. Although a rudimentary analysis, it shows that Posada can stand toe-to-toe as a hitter with every other Hall of Fame backstop but Piazza.
Posada’s Ranking Among Hall of Fame Catchers and Likely Inductees
| Category | Posada | Ranking |
| OPS+ | 121 | 10 |
| wOBA | .367 | 6 |
| G | 1818 | 10 |
| PA | 7120 | 8 |
| AB | 6066 | 9 |
| R | 899 | 9 |
| H | 1659 | 11 |
| 2B | 379 | 5 |
| HR | 274 | 7 |
| RBI | 1061 | 9 |
| BB | 932 | 1 |
| BA | .273 | 11 |
| OBP | .374 | 6 |
| SLG | .475 | 8 |
| OPS | .849 | 6 |
Note: Likely inductees include Mike Piazza and Ivan Rodriguez.
Source: Baseball-reference.com and fangraphs.com
As a hitter, Jorge Posada’s Hall of Fame credentials seem undeniable, so the deciding factor could be electorate’s ability to remember the days when he was considered a solid defender. However, if the recent defensive stains on his reputation are considered prominently, they could be used as a reason to deny his candidacy. Unfortunately, Posada’s bumpy 2011 could also have a lasting impression on voters. Hopefully, when it finally comes time to cast a ballot, those with a vote will remember the extent of Posada’s contribution. And, in the meantime, as the veteran catcher’s days in pinstripes dwindle down, hopefully Yankees’ fans will do the same.
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13 Responses to Montero’s Arrival Overshadows Posada’s Departure, but End of Potential Hall of Fame Career Shouldn’t Be Overlooked
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TIQ IQ
Absurdly Long Titles: Why Can’t He Can’t an Editor or Someone to Help Him Out and Edit Them Down a Little Bit? At the End of the Day, It’s Distracting. Titles Aren’t Supposed to be a Synopsis of Your Post. Or Are They? Let’s Investigate
Thanks for your interest, but I am pretty happy with my headline writer.
Oh, haha, I wasn’t recommending MYSELF! I’d rather, I dunno, shove a chopstick through my eyeball or something. But thank you!
Here’s why Posada isn’t a Hall Of Famer:
1. His two contemporaries were much better than him in a major way.
Mike Piazza was a much better hitter than Posada.
Ivan Rodriguez was a much better defender than Posada.
2. Posada never won a Gold Glove.
3. Everything Posada has done Hall Of Fame catchers have done already, some more, others way more.
Carlton Fisk hit a ton of homeruns. Posada will not finish with nearly as many homeruns as Fisk.
Yogi Berra won a ton of World Series. Yogi has ten WS rings to Posada’s five but only two as the full-time catcher. Yogi has five times as many WS rings as the full-time catcher as Posada.
4. Posada hasn’t done what some Hall Of Famers have done.
Johnny Bench won back-to-back World Series as a full-time catcher whereas Posada needed Girardi to win the 1999 World Series. The Yanks went to back to back WS with Posada as the full-time catcher, but they lost one.
Gary Carter was a year in-year old clubhouse leader of the Mets.whereas Posada was never truly a clubhouse leader. Yeah Posada cursed out Pedro for hitting Yankees once, but so did alot of guys.
5. Joe Mauer has been a better catcher than him ever since he put on a catcher’s mask and he’s still better than Posada despite less playing time at the C lately. His career before this year has been far more impressive than Posada’s in the same period and Posada’s prime. MVP award and Gold Gloves.
Seriously, what was so distinctive about Posada? He was a non-factor in the 1996 World Series and 1997 ALCS. He shared catching duties with Girardi 1998-99. 2000 was the first World Series he won as the clearcut starting catcher. He’s 2 for 4 in World Series as the full-time catcher, but what the hell did he do in any of them besides a big double in Game 1 of the 2000 World Series? What big postseason hit has he collected besides that one for all the years he’s made the postseason? I wanna say he smacked a homerun off of Carl Pavano, but I should hope someone would LOL. I’ll check. Pavano is a such a guy I wanna forget about it even includes what the Yanks did to him when he was a Twin LOL.
Piazza was just a beast and perhaps the best hitter in MLB for a long time considering he hit what he hit at the position he played. I-Rod was a Gold Glove hoarder – dude has 11 Gold Gloves, no? Over 2800 hits and counting cuz he’s still plugging away. Spare me he took steroids cuz steroids don’t win you 11 Gold Gloves and then don’t let A-Rod into the HOF either cuz he cheated 2001-2003 and what did his playing SS/3B butt have to endure compared to I-Rod? Carter was the driving force against the Red Sox at Fenway with the Mets down 0-2 in the 1986 World Series. I, a young Yankee fan back then, rooted for this guy in that Series, yes I did, to hell with rooting for my league, I wasn’t thinking like that then and the exception is when the Red Sox play the World Series LOL. Bench was an American heartthrob and the first modern-day flashy ladies man-type star not to mention a great hitting catcher and definitely the last great one after Piazza. Fisk hit that homerun moreoever invented the waving a ball fair so it’s a homerun. Yogi was Yogi – his sayings alone made him famous LOL.
Posada? What? Friggin’ PAT BORDERS won the 1992 World Series MVP, Darrell Porter the 1982 World Series MVP a decade before that, and neither are anywhere close to being Hall Of Famers.
In short, Jorge Posada is Bernie Williams behind the plate: A very good player for a very long time but didn’t have something over Hall Of Famers or future Hall Of Famers at his position or do anything any of them didn’t do.
Here’s why I think your reasons are very dubious:
1) Piazza and IRod were great players and there are plenty of examples of three players at the same position being elected from the same era.
2)Nor has Piazza, and he’ll be elected.
3) What has Fisk done that others haven’t done better. He doesn’t lead in any categories. I am sure half the names on the list in that same category.
4)You might be surprised to know that Bench caught only six more innings in 1975-1976 than Posada did in 1999-2000(2,073 to 2,067).
Also, I am not sure what inside info you have from the clubhouse, but google Posada and clubhouse leader to read the many articles stating otherwise.
5)As I mentioned, Joe Mauer’s peak has been impressive, but at age-28, he is already breaking down. Longevity counts.
As for what was so distinctive, just look at the numbers.
I’ll respond to your points by number:
1) Name me three everyday players (what I’m really talking about here) who played in the same era elected in in recent times, say 1981 on (the last three decades which is a sizeable amount of time.) Schmidt and Brett at 3B, Smith and Ripken Jr. at SS, Winfield and Rice in LF, Fisk and Carter at C. It always seems to stop at two players.
2) Piazza’s lifetime BA, OBP, and SLG plus his 400+ career HR overrides him never winning a Gold Glove, and he was a better defensive catcher than Posada. Name me one starting pitcher who didn’t want or care to pitch to Piazza. Posada’s list has to be at least five name pitchers – here’s one: Mo. There was always talk about Mo and Po not being on the same page alot. Here’s another: CC. I never read about a pitcher not being on the same page as Piazza. Posada? Google it and you’ll find plenty of results for articles about how he’s a pain to pitch to.
3) It’s irrelevant that Fisk wasn’t as good as Bench, Berra, Carter, Piazza, or I-Rod (former three HOFs, latter two future HOFs), he was/is still better than Posada and even has a memorable moment which Posada doesn’t. Fisk was a consistently good or better catcher for a looong time in the pre-steroids era and he has an immortal moment which Posada doesn’t have. You have to understand the homerun he hit in Game 6 of the 1975 World Series was at the time, the biggest moment for a storied franchise until ’86 and even after it considering it was the reverse Game 6 (walkoff win instead of a loss.) It’s so famous an Academy Award-winning movie devoted the better part of the first pivotal scene to it (Good Will Hunting.) Fisk’s homerun is behind Boston’s 1918, 2004, and 2007 World Series triumphs, but it still is famous and solidly at #4 for it was a ray of sunlight in a very dark world for Boston, and I’m not even a Red Sox fan, obviously,this is what Red Sox fans have told me. That night was one where Red Sox fans actually felt their team was gonna finally win it all after then 57 years. Luckily for the Reds it wasn’t Game 7 or the Red Sox weren’t up 3-2 in the Series.
4) Number of innings caught is not the point. Bench was the definitive catcher for the 1975-76 Reds, no one gives a hoot who his backup was. Posada, however, will always have Girardi tied to his 1998-2001 success because Girardi mentored him 1996-1999. Also I’m not talking about playing time, I’m talking back to back winning time. Bench won back to back World Series as the clearcut C, Posada didn’t. Posada still had Girardi mentoring him 1998-99 and the Yanks lost the 2001 WS.
5) Joe Mauer’s breaking down? Too early to tell. Right now he’s still the best catcher in the AL the past decade. I will chalk up his 2011 to being an off-year.. He has an MVP award, Gold Gloves, has helped his team to multiple postseason berths, has no suspicion of using steroids, is only 28. I’d say this year is more like a recharging his batteries thing than him transitioning to RF or breaking down. I think it’s wishful thinking on your part. I’m not saying Mauer is a future HOF, but he is sure on his way if he keeps up his production. And when he’s clearly been the better catcher and player than Posada most of his entire career including this year, how can you say Posada is a HOF? I would’ve taken Mauer after his first two seasons over Posada, and you would too if you had any common sense. I’d take Mauer now in a heartbeat as nice a year as Martin has had. Montero still can’t catch, besides that I wouldn’t entrust him to be the everyday catcher next year or maybe even 2013 as great as he’s been so far in very little playing time.
6) I’ve looked at the numbers, and I see a guy who has hit over .300 only once, .285 or better only three times, has a lifetime batting average of .273, no Gold Glove, has not been as good as Joe Mauer overall, certainly wasn’t as good as prime Piazza or I-Rod even in his prime, needed Girardi to mentor him for four years (1996-1999), has maybe two really big hits (one was a double in Game 1 of the 2000 World Series), and no memorable moments.
Berra, Bench, Fisk, Carter, Piazza, I-Rod. I would pick any one of them in his prime over Posada’s prime.
As for Mauer, he’s so good he was awarded a record contract in years and money for a catcher and a Twin which dwarfs either of Posada’s last two contracts. He’s also been the face of the Twins for almost a decade. He’s every bit a one-team player as Posada.
also as far as big hits go i know it was a bloop but give the guy some credit for a huge game tying double in the 8th off pedro gm 7 2003 alcs. several big seasons(2000,2003,2007) just not all in 1 lump like bench. long solid career how many catchers get to age 39 behind the dish. thanks for the post william keep it up
Um, if it wasn’t for MY POST, William wouldn’t have made a post for you to thank him for so ya might want to thank me, too, but you people only thank people who you agree with for posts, I guess. Williams didn’t put a single dent in my stance. His running theme was “look at the stats”. Yeah, I have, and Posada’s stats are unremarkable compared to those of his contemporaries Piazza, I-Rod, and Mauer who is nowhere close to being done as a catcher. Overplayed (Mauer), ok, maybe, but he is too good a player to flame out. Those three were the faces of their franchises (Piazza for the Mets, I-Rod for the Rangers, Mauer for the Twins.)
Game 7 2003 ALCS was, is, and always will be Aaron Boone’s walkoff series-winning homerun off Tim Wakefield. Even Paul O’Neil’s epic at-bat in Game 1 of the World Series was bigger than Posada’s double that night. Piazza’s most infamous moment (Clemens throwing the bat at him in Game 2 of the 2000 World Series) is bigger than Posada’s most famous moment. Posada doesn’t have a memorable or career-defining moment.
Bench is a Hall Of Famer because he was the best catcher in MLB for long enough time to be one. Let me know when Posada was. Again, after Piazza and I-Rod came Mauer. Posada didn’t hit like Piazza, defend like I-Rod, or do both like Mauer has done and will continue to do despite his off-year this year. Four more solid years by Mauer and he’ll be a Hall Of Famer by age 32. I’d vote him in even if he had fou solid years out of his next seven.
There’s no way that the yanks won’t put Posada on the playoff roster. They’re not ending his career by telling him to shove off while they go and (potentially) win the world series. No matter how Posada’s season has been up to this point, he is still on the team and still viewed respectfully as a Yankee great. He will be on the playoff roster, if for no other reason than respect.
I’d like to agree with you, but I am not sure. It seems as if Posada is gradually being phased out, which wouldn’t make sense if he was a strong post season option.
Well done. To add:
http://www.yankeeanalysts.com/2010/06/the-case-for-cooperstown-jorge-posada-19189
http://www.yankeeanalysts.com/2011/08/supplementing-my-jorge-argument-33044
You’re just running off stats, none of which HOFs and future HOFs haven’t posted and posted better than.
Johnny Bench – The face of The Big Red Machine.
Gary Carter – A one-man wrecking crew for the Mets at Fenway down 0-2 in the 1986 World Series. Piazza before Piazza with the Mets.
Carlton Fisk – Walkoff homerun in Game 7 of the 1975 World Series featured in Good Will Hunting the last great film about young adulthood.
Ivan Rodriguez – A gazillion Gold Gloves, 2800+ hits and counting, and well over a thousand more hits than Posada.
Mike Piazza – His acquistion forever changed the face and culture of the Mets. Top three most feared hitters and perhaps the most feared NL hitter in his prime.
Yogi Berra and Thurman Munson were/are more famous than Jorge Posada besides being better catchers. Munson was so famous, revered, and loved the Yanks still haven’t given his locker to someone else and didn’t have a captain until they made Mattingly one.
Joe Mauer – The total package for almost a decade and still only 28.
Posada has been a very good hitting catcher, but he’d be a better Javy Lopez if he wasn’t on five World Series winners and two AL champs and at a lifetime .273 BA, I just don’t see what he’s done that past, HOF, future HOF, and contemporary great catchers haven’t done.
BTW don’t get me wrong people, I love Posada although I have been very disappointed and angry at his off the field stuff (removing himself from the lineup, saying he can still catch when Martin and Cervelli are the catchers now, talking about playing somewhere else next year in the middle of his worst season etc.), but to me he is Bernie Williams in catching gear. Or are any of you gonna compare Bernie to Mantle, DiMaggio, Rickey Henderson, and Griffey Jr? Cuz that would be no contest that he isn’t up there with them either, as solid as a player as he was.
I just want to clear up a few things for Duh Innings because he’s not very intelligent. First, I did an internship with the Yankees for a summer and everyone in Tampa at the Himes facility seems to think he’s a great leader, so therefore I would assume he is. But nice try. Also, where did you get your information that Girardi was “mentoring” Posada from 1996-1999? We should assume that Posada has been “mentored” by Girardi since he became the manager right?
Hall of Famers are not based on their “face of a franchise” status or not. The Hall of Fame voters (which I’m glad you are not a part of) do not care whether or not someone had a “memorable hit” or not.
And also, you’re incredibly stupid if you think that Posada’s game tying double in Game 7 of the 2003 ALCS against Pedro (who we couldn’t touch the entire game) wasn’t big. It led to the firing of Grady Little and hiring of Terry Francona (which has been a thorn in our side for the last seven years).
I’m not certain what Bernie Williams has to do with Posada (other than the fact that I can see that you are trying to make the comparison between Bernie being a great Yankee and Posada being a great Yankee). No one is claiming that Bernie should be in the Hall of Fame as a center fielder. The argument is about catchers and Posada is one of the all time greats.
Mauer has not been a deity for a decade. For God’s sake, he debuted in 2004. Don’t get me wrong, he’s a great player but your arguments are so innaccurate with respect to him. Also, he is breaking down. If you can read, instead of listen to talk radio about the Yankees (which is what I believe you do because you don’t seem to like any sort of sabermetrical statistic or analysis) then you should check this out http://espn.go.com/sports/fantasy/blog/_/name/bell_stephania/id/6360719.
Please define “Piazza’s Prime” for us as in specific years. I’d like to see who (considering that was the steroid era) was less feared than Piazza. I hope you aren’t going to say Bonds, Sosa, McGwire…
As for Hall of Famers in threes- just off the top of my head: Boggs, Molitor, Schmidt, Brett all played in the 80′s right? There is no rule in Cooperstown that 3 players from the same position cannot go into the Hall despite playing in the same time frame.
I think Pete Rose might be the “face of the Big Red Machine”… just saying.
I’m glad to see that Gary Carter’s career consisted of games 3-7 of the 1986 World Series and that’s why he’s a Hall of Famer.