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As the trade deadline approached, I became increasingly confident that the Yankees were going to be spectators. The Bombers certainly would have benefited from getting Ubaldo Jimenez, but there were enough question marks surrounding his price to make me doubt any eventual deal. Now that the dust has settled on this year’s trade deadline, it is clear that the Yankees made the right move not trading for Jimenez, or any other players included in this year’s thin market.
This may seem like an about face for me. Earlier this trade season I argued that the Yankees could easily part ways with Jesus Montero, Manny Banuelos and Dellin Betances for Jimenez. My logic was simple. Jimenez is currently a young front of the rotation talent. The Yankees would benefit from having him over the next several seasons. While in time they may have wound up the losers in that deal, if Jimenez was truly as he seemed the immediate benefits were probably worth it, especially since it was uncertain that any of the big three Yankee prospects would develop into as talented a player as Jimenez. I stood by that trade at the time. I stand by it now. I’m happy that the Yankees didn’t make a move, but not because my opinion of Montero, Banuelos or Betances has changed.
At the time that I was arguing such a trade would have been worth it for Ubaldo, I was adding two critical caveats to any potential trade. The first was that the Yankees keep Ivan Nova. In time Nova may not become as good a pitcher as Manny or Dellin, but he has become a known, reliable quantity for the Yankees right now. He serves as starter 5A, which is a valuable insurance plan to have on a rotation as creaky as the Yankees. The entire logic of getting Jimenez is to win now. If the Yankees are truly committed to winning now then they would need to keep Nova.
The second caveat of any deal for Ubaldo was his health. Much has been justifiably made of Jimenez’s declining velocity this season. For his career his fastball has been around 96 mph, but this season it is down a few miles. That is significant. A pitcher as young as Jimenez should be entering his prime. He should be able to throw the ball harder than ever. That he cannot indicates a possible injury that hasn’t yet been diagnosed. If the Yankees were to make such a block buster trade for Jimenez, he would have to remain healthy. The entire move would be a cosmic bust if Ubaldo wound up spending a year on the DL.
It is being reported that the Rockies wanted any trade with the Yankees to start with Ivan Nova, and that the team would not allow the Bombers to give Jimenez a physical prior to completing any trade. Those demands are why the Yankees made the right move. The trade would feature the only player that I would consider off limits if I were in Brian Cashman’s shoes, and as a policy I wouldn’t make a trade for any player I couldn’t have my own physicians assure me was in perfect health. If those were the Rockies’ demands then the smart move was to let some other team meet them. Jimenez is a great talent, but no one is so great a talent that he shouldn’t have to take a physical.
With respect to the other names being tossed about during this trade season, names like Wandy Rodriguez and Hiroki Kuroda, I say meh. The fact of the matter is that there was no crown jewel to be had at the deadline this season. Jimenez would have been a nice addition, but the price was wrong. Any other trade would have needed to be one sided in the Yankees favor or risk smacking of desperation. While it is unfortunate that the Yankees didn’t make a move in a season in which the team is a legitimate contender with a starting rotation that was literally assembled from the scrap heap, it is for that very reason that the Yankees needed to be cautious at the deadline. Entering this season the Bombers were said to be under dogs (sort of). Now, the team is just two games off Boston’s pace with a chance to take the division lead this week end. If the Yankees make it to the ALCS again this year (a distinct possibility) the team’s management will certainly write 2011 off as a stunning, unexpected success. That’s what happens when you win with pitchers like Bartolo Colon and Freddy Garcia. Between their resources and wealth of prospects the Yankees will have plenty of opportunities to improve the team in the coming seasons.
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34 Responses to The Yankees’ no move was the right move
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The Yankees made the right choice of not trading for Jimenez. Although the impact that he could of had this year for the Yankees would have given them a better chance for them to win this year and the next few, the price that it would have cost to get him was just too high. Montero is going to be called up soon, Banuelos might be seen in September and Betances will start next year in AAA. These prospects and Nova were too much to give up for Jimenez.
The Yankees farm system is starting to produce talented players as seen by their upper level talent in Montero, Betances, Banuelos and Nova, with the 4th/5th starters in AAA. They also have lower level talent that could shoot up the prospect rankings in Brett Marshall, Mason Williams, Gary Sanchez, and other prospects who could be contributors on some major league rosters.
If we have talent behind these guys that’s all the more reason we should be willing to part with them for Ubaldo.
And I thought the rumors were the Rockies came off of us having to include three of the big four?
If we have this talent in the minors who are so close to the majors and get to have team control of them for six years when they are in their low 20s, an age that you can’t get in free agency. They wanted Betances, Montero, and Nova which would still have been a high prices amount given what the Indians gave up.
I feel the Yankees are trying to change the way things are currently being run and are taking the team in a new direction. They way they become a more successful during this age is to develop your own prospects and choose which ones you want to sign for long term. Because of their financial status, the Yankees can pick and choose which players to keep without worrying really about how much money they could spend. The dynasty run was because the Yankees had Jeter, Williams, Posada, Rivera, and Pettitte at the beginning of their careers. They had these players at ages that wouldn’t have been available if they were on different teams and entered free agency.
Free agency is used to fill up holes that your team has, but the farm system should be used to build a young core team to build around in order to be successful for years. If these prospects live up to the hype, then we have him at ages that you couldn’t buy in free agency but only get if homegrown or traded for which may be a high price. Free agency and trades strengthen a team’s overall abilities, but a great farm system gives the team players who if developed right are the ones that contribute the most because of the age that the team has them when they are called up to the majors.
“develop your own prospects”
We haven’t been too good at that.
“The dynasty run was because the Yankees had Jeter, Williams, Posada, Rivera, and Pettitte”
It was also because they traded for guys like David Cone.
You’re just flat out underestimating or ignoring the rate in which prospects fail.
Developed: Cano, Gardner, Nova, Robertson. Hughes and Chamberlain were also contributors although they had injuries and ineffectual times granted. Nunez to a degree, at least enough to hold the team together. Same for Pena. Wang at one point.
Trade: Did you actually look at who we traded for Cone? That was basically a salary dump, the jays were 35-47 and looking to rebuild. Salary dumps for a player of Cone’s caliber is fantastic and what the yankees want. It’s not the same at all as Ubaldo. An equivalent trade in 95 would probably be trading our budding young lefty Andy Pettite (Banuelos or Betances) and our top 20 ranked position prospect Derek Jeter (Montero). Assuming that drew pomeranz is indeed the player to be named later they got 2 top prospects in pomeranz and white, a nova type in gordon, and a throw in org player.
Sure prospects fail. That’s why they are prospects and not major leaguers yet. It’s too early to see who made the right decision about Ubaldo. But you are pretty way off on your comments I’d say.
Interestingly three of those four players you mention were drafter/signed before Cashman took full control and revamped the farm, including Cano, who is far and away the best one.
Minor League debut:
Gardner = 2005
Robertson = 2007
Nova = 2006
Joba = 2007
Nunez = 2005
Cashman took control in 2005.
Do you mean 3 of the 4 are AFTER Cashman took full control? In terms of “developing” players it’s not about when they sign but after what the yankees do with them in development afterall. Only Cano is significantly before Cashman took control. Gardner couldn’t even be traded in 2005 due to rules of the 1 year and after that he was protected and developed. Please check your facts before listing stats.
How Brian Cashman’s name get brought up, we are talking about how not trading prospects could be much better for the future. I believe this website or riveraveblues wrote an article about trades that could have been that could have altered the shape of the Yankees, including the possible trade of Derek Jeter.
Brian Cashman tenure produced I believe Alfonso Soriano, Hughes, Gardner, Chamberlain, Cano, Robertson, making trades for Granderson, and Nick Swisher. The Yankees have trouble developing starting pitchers, but teams have issues in some departments when it comes to developing players. This could be the turning point, or it could not. The point is the best and most successful teams are the ones that build from within having players at such a young age getting production that usually eludes players that enter free agency because they are usually in their late 20s early 30s. There are some exceptions like CC who is a special talent.
He took control after 2005
@Soup Yes he took control after 2005. You know when all those 2005 year players could actually be traded? When their development took place? You do know that players can’t be traded the first year after they sign right?
I don’t disagree with your basic premise even that we do need to make some trades. But you used a terrible example for your trade (a salary dump for a cy young caliber pitcher) and mentioned that we didn’t do any player development when we clearly have. You need to check/use better facts.
Your initial comment is why the Yankees didn’t win anything from 2001 to 2008. Thats what made the 1990s dynasty successful. They did make trades and signings such as Clemens, David Justice, Tino Martinez, David Wells, David Cone, Orlando Hernendez, Paul O’Neil. These players though didn’t stick with the team really for more than 5 years (just an estimate, not to be taking as an accurate timeline). What was continuously on the Yankee roster were those five I mentioned above, from 1996-2003 (Andy Pettitte signing with Astros), and then had the other four for a few more years before Williams couldn’t make the roster. They got Pettitte back, and with that core four that had been around for 13 years, mixed with free agency signings to fill up starting rotation holes and first base (2009 free agency signings), trades to get outfield depth (Nick Swisher), and using the farm system to fill up other holes (Robinson Cano, David Robertson, Brett Gardner, Phil Hughes, Joba Chamberlain) they won another championship.
Brett Gardner is considered by advanced statistics as a top outfield player, Robinson Cano is considered an allstar, and David Robertson has stepped up and has a sub 2.00 ERA with a chance of getting 100 strikeouts as a reliever. They have developed a few players so we haven’t been that bad when it comes to the farm system, despite Hughes and Chamberlain not living up to the hype and Ian Kennedy pitching on another team (part of the trade to get Granderson). Now they have a good farm system again and have a chance to develop key pieces that could remain on the team for years to come.
You underestimate the impact that a good farm system has for a team that has the money to pick and choose which players they want to retain for the rest of their most productive years. Thats how you build dynasties in baseball. For the Yankees its not just having a great shot of winning the World Series for just one year, since they could just get unlucky and not advance far into the postseason. With a farm system they could continually be contenders for the title for years. This is even more important now based on the division the Yankees are in. There isn’t just the Red Sox and Yankees anymore. The Rays have been contenders for the last 4 years, and now Toronto has overwhelmingly altered their roster and developed a farm system to help plug up the remaining holes on their roster. If you are in this division, the way that teams can make the playoffs in baseball, having the third best record in the AL might not get you a playoff spot. With that uncertainty, it is imperative to have a good farm system in the AL East to have a shot of making the playoffs, using you’re assets to plug up holes on the roster.
The requirements to get Jimenez was deemed too much by the Yankees, and since they have scouting videos and personnel who have a better idea on how to evaluate players, the decision not to trade for Jimenez and shore up the starting rotation should be indicative that what the team has in the farm system was worth more than the pitcher that the Indians acquired at the trade deadline this year.
I didn’t finish your post but that first paragraph is full of rich assumptions, including this right off the bat “Your initial comment is why the Yankees didn’t win anything from 2001 to 2008.”
Your comments are filled with ignorance. You turn a blind side to the possible rewards of keeping prospects. In an age where having young talented pitchers is a way to be successful, then why did the Rockies who had Ubaldo Jimenez under a very very team friendly contract make him available unless there is something that is raising red flags.
If young starting pitchers are very important, then why would the Yankees trade their pitching prospects for someone who last year was untouchable, and now available with reason to rush to trade him?
Because the chance that Betances becomes as good as Jimenez with reduced velocity are minimal, never mind the chance that Jimenez returns to being an absolute stud.
And Jimenez is not the only talented pitcher we’ve watched go to another team.
“develop your own prospects”
We haven’t been too good at that.
Your opinion is misguided completely, as my post is a response to that comment. When it comes to the Yankees not winning the World Series is deemed a failure by the majority.. The Yankees may fail to win the World Series every year, but a great farm system with impact players gives them a good opportunity to have a shot of winning the title year in and year out despite the chances of getting injuries since a farm system creates depth, which could eventually be traded if there depth forms a log jam.
Currently as the roster stands, Colon, and Garcia will not be returning I would believe after this year, A.J. has been inconsistent, Hughes hasn’t returned to form that made him an allstar last year. CC pitched his way into a new contract that the Yankees will have to give, but that is 1 rotation spot out of 5 guaranteed. Even with Ubaldo, people saw him as a No. 2 starter rather than an ace. The back end can be filled with what the Yankees have in Warren/Phelps/Nova, with the Betances and Banuelos being fixtures in the middle of the rotation. This would be a cheap rotation besides CC, while keeping Montero that could produce the same value that Jimenez would have given, maybe more depending on who reaches their potential.
I’ll take Ubaldo on the cheap (dirt cheap) as a #2 for two seasons and three playoff runs any day.
Why would the Rockies be willing to let us give Ubaldo a physical BEFORE players were agreed upon? That is an extremely unusual request.
Is it? I’m not sure what precedence is on this.
The Rockies didn’t want to let the Yankees looking into Jimenez’s medicals without agreeing to a trade in principle. What this could indicate, is that there was something in his medicals that is uncertain since maybe no one has an idea what exactly it could be. I think the Yankees wanted to see his medicals before discussing a trade as a way to save face from the fans. I believe this because there would be backlash by the fan base if the Yankees agreed to a trade between them and the Rockies for Ubaldo and they found something alarming in his physical that would force the Yankees to change their minds and decline the trade. If this scenario occurred, then Yankee fans would be in an uproar thinking they agreed to trade for someone that could contribute alot in the playoffs and now they are backing out of it. Getting an MRI done before discussing a trade allows the Yankees more time to evaluate Jimenez medicals and see if there is a problem if the Rockies accepted the Yankees request.
That’s true but that’s probably true of most trade situations where you would *like* to see a physical before. I actually may agree with Soup here though, even if most of the other stuff he has said I disagree with, I dunno how common for a team to actually grant a physical before players are agreed to. Certainly it seems to be done after players are agreed to and a deal is in place, but I dunno how often it is granted before then.
There was a concern when it came to Jimenez and the Yankees didn’t want to trade for him, and requesting a medical evaluation before even discussing a trade would give the Yankees an opportunity not to pursue further.
@Mark “The Rockies didn’t want to let the Yankees looking into Jimenez’s medicals without agreeing to a trade in principle. ”
I think that is true for most trade situations. I’m sure most teams would *like* to see a physical beforehand and be able to save face/not have to announce a deal and then back out. But that doesn’t really benefit the team trading. And as said, I actually can not recall that many times that physicals were done before players were agreed on. Again, this is more that I don’t know. I’m in Matt’s camp of I don’t know what the precedence is but it doesn’t seem to be universally standard at the least to give physicals before agreeing on players.
In looking for more news it seems it is actually that the Yankees asked for an MRI, not merely a normal physical, before players were agreed to/in place. It was the MRI that was flat out rejected apparently. Cleveland apparently only did a physical after the deal was in place, and never did an MRI.
It really makes no sense for the Rockies. And rumors of an MRI request are floating around too which would be even less agreeable to a team trying to make a deal since you can almost always find some damage in a pitcher’s arm.
Cashman was either overly cautious about showing his hand (agreeing to a trade and having everyone know how he valued his prospects) or he simply was never interested in parting with his prospects to begin with. I’ll go with the latter. He’s a talented guy but he’s become too prospect obsessed.
Excellent post, Mike. I whole heartedly agree.
Wait a minute… Mike, are you saying the Rockies were NEVER going to let us give him a physical? Because that is flat out wrong.
I was distributing what was reported elsewhere. Perhaps I could have worded my synopsis better. What I had read is that the Yankees wanted to look at his medical records before the team got deep into trade discussions, and the Rockies said no. That was red flag enough for the Yankees.
The Indians are in a totally different situation. They don’t compete every year. If Jimenez’s arm falls off next year but gets them to the ALCS this year it is probably worth it.
I understand the logic of all involved parties.
The fact that Hughes showed last season that he can fortify the back end, and with an additional put away pitch maybe become a 2/3 , gives me some faith in Cashman’s confidence in Banuelos.
Hughes might barely be rotation ready but his floor is that of someone who can make any rotation outside of philly.
Banuelos hopefully gets a full season at AAA before sticking with the club. He’s the crown jewel and he’s got to be handled better than the way Hughes was handled.
Phil might not even be in the rotation by this time next week.
I certainly hope Hughes can turn it around. He’s got almost two months; certainly more than a week. Let’s hope he earns a spot on the playoff rotation as a starter.
Now, a fully recovered Hughes should miss more bats than Nova. That’s what gives Hughes the leg up. We need Hughes to return to 2010 form. That’s not ace form by any means, but its a form we’ll all gladly take right now.
Well he’s not throwing as hard as he was in 2010 so I have my doubts about him getting back to that form.
Nova doesn’t get enough respect, sure he doesn’t miss bats like 2010 Hughes but he induces a lot of ground balls.
Before I read the other comments, I want to ackowledge that you said it very well, Mike, a couple days before the deadline, that such a trade would be feasible for Ubaldo pre-break 2010, rather than 2011 Ubaldo.
Well said.
LOL, soup has his doubts that Hughes will get back to form but soup is OUTRAGED that the Cash didn’t trade all of our prospects away for Ubaldo who clearly has lost 3 mph on his fastball and is sporting a 4.20 era in NL and is not back to form!
Sorry but it makes me wonder if these Yankee fans like Steve S and Soup are really that, Yankee fans?
A guy who still throws 94 and has a fip and xfip around 3.50, Hughes has had problems with his velocity on and off for 5 years now and a 5 ERA as a starter
I’m a Yankee fan, you’re a dumb Yankee fan