Please stop the Brian Gordon hand wringing
During the game last night, we heard that the Yankees essentially “poached” pitcher Brian Gordon from the Lehigh Valley Iron Pigs, the AAA affiliate for the Phillies, so that he could (most likely) start the game for the Bombers on Thursday that is vacated by Bartolo Colon. Gordon had a minor league opt out in his contract with Philadelphia and exercised it so he could pitch in the Majors.
Gordon is a converted outfielder who has a career .781 OPS in the minors. He started pitching full time in 2007 at the age of 2008 when he was 28. Since then, he’s pitched in 168 games, 22 of them starts. In 366.2 innings, he’s got a 3.09 ERA, 1.156 WHIP, 2.1 BB/9, and a 7.7 K/9. Those are pretty solid numbers, so we’ll have to see if they translate to the Majors for (at least) one game. In 2008, he pitched 4.0 innings for the Rangers, allowing 1 run on 4 hits with 0 walks and 1 strikeout.
After this announcement, there was a lot of unfortunate hand-wringing about the signing. I participated a little bit, commenting that Hector Noesi probably isn’t thrilled about this. Still, though, I think this is the smart move.
I want Noesi to get a start and it would be nice to see one of the Yankee prospects get a shot at starting in Colon’s absence, but I can see why the Yankees will probably go with Gordon on Thursday. Using him instead of one of the minor leaguers allows the Yankees to avoid dipping into the prospect well. Gordon is the definition of a DFA-able player, too, so if he does pitch poorly, he’ll probably be gone after that start, after which the Yankees can give Noesi a start, or call up David Phelps or D.J. Mitchell, or whichever other minor leaguer you’d prefer. This move is designed to preserve resources for at least a little while longer, and that’s a good thing. If the Yankees were to call up Phelps or someone and that pitcher got rocked or got hurt, the roster headache for the Yankees would continue (though it wouldn’t be that bad considering options and all that).
This move does not mean, as some people non-sarcastically suggested, that Brian Cashman and the Yankee organization hate their own prospects and don’t want to give them a chance. That’s absolutely ridiculous. If you thought that for more than five seconds and you meant it, you need to re-evaluate your own thinking. The logic behind this move is the same as the logic I argued when advocating for both Colon and Freddy Garcia starting 2011 in the starting rotation while stashing Ivan Nova in Scranton to start the year. Starting Gordon allows the Yankees to burn through a guy who’s likely got no future with the organization before turning to the pitchers who could be Yankees for more than a two-week stretch.
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“This move does not mean, as some people non-sarcastically suggested, that Brian Cashman and the Yankee organization hate their own prospects and don’t want to give them a chance.” I take the opposite view — that the organization tends to coddle its pitching prospects, almost as though it fears exposing them at the major league level lest doing so lessen their value as trading chips. Unless the Yankees begin to use prospects and give them a chance to succeed (or fail) at the major league level, we will always be “two years away” from seeign whether there is a low-cost, internal solution to the team’s pitching needs.
What does a prospect getting “rocked or hurt” have to do with anything? They could get hurt while pitching in the minors… If they really had faith in them why would one bad outing mean anything?
And the logic behind using Garcia and Colon while stashing Nova doesn’t apply in this case since it’s a temporary situation, not a season long marathon.
It’s actually the exact same option, since neither Colon or Garcia were considered anything more than “temporary situations”. Both just happen to pitch we’ll and keep their jobs to this point, if Gordon pitches well he’ll keep his job.
He won’t keep his job, Colon is coming back.
I agree with both responses. I’d add that the Yankees seem to have gotten conservative over the past several months, almost always choosing players with MLB experience over those without it.
Except Brian Gordon has less MLB experience than Noesi.
Gordon is a veteran, and that’s important to teams using the conservative approach.
Gordon is not a “veteran” as in an MLB veteran. The dude is a career minor-leaguer who played the field mostly and has exactly 4 MLB appearances as a pitcher, all in 2008, three years ago.
Why is it “ridiculous” that Cashman doesn’t think anyone in the farm system is good enough to get the start? This guy Gordon just joined the team and is facing a first-place team if he makes the start tomorrow. That doesn’t sound like a vote of confidence for the farm system. Why can’t Noesi get the nod and Gordon be the mopup man? Hasn’t Noesi shown he has the talent to give the Yankees at least five innings? What has Gordon shown? His only MLB experience as a pitcher is 4 games in 2008, about as cup of coffee as you could get. I hope Gordon does well if he gets the start of course and wouldn’t be a real Yankee fan if I wished he did badly so I can say “I told you so” – I don’t play that game – but this is either lack of confidence in or some kind of weird babying of the farmhands by Cashman. The dude still won’t call up Montero or Molina even though he has one catcher who can catch but can’t do it well or hit (Cervelli) and a guy who can hit but is not 100% prepared to catch in case he has to (Posada.)
Cashman is scared to call up top prospects for fear they’ll suck with the big club and lose trade value. What else when you have essentially one catcher and Montero still isn’t here?
A 32-year old Phillies AAA converted outfielder and career minor-league player castoff with zero MLB experience since his cup of coffee in 2008 gets the start over everyone in the Yankees farm system. That’s the reality if he starts tomorrow. I don’t mind / I am not angry at the signing – you can never have enough pitching – I do mind and am angry that the Yankees are using a mysterious castoff for the rubber game. You’re delusional if you don’t think other teams are thinking “Why not a farmhand? Why this castoff?” They are legitimate questions when you’re shopping your ace, #2, or #3 starter, or your too expensive to keep after the year is up setup man.
The “Gordon could be DFAd / chucked if he stinks” rationale for the start is ridiculous because that implies the Yankees have a game to throw away when they don’t. This isn’t extended spring training. The Yankees have already pissed away the chance to win the division with the same record as Boston because if they lose just two more games to Boston in the next nine matchups against them (likely), they are the wildcard or will have to play one game for it if Heaven forbid someone else finishes with the same record – Tampa Bay? David Price in Game 163 is my worst nightmare and don’t think for a second Joe Madden wouldn’t use him. The AL wildcard could begin every postseason series on the road if the NL wins the All-Star Game. The Yankees will most likely need to finish with at least one more win than Boston to win the division and at least secure homefield advantage in at least one AL postseason series, and I don’t think starting some castoff is a good idea to achieving that minimum goal.
What if the Yankees win and Boston loses tonight for a half-game separation between the teams? You really want a complete unknown for the sweep and a possible overtaking of first place (or tie if Boston’s off tomorrow)? I don’t. Noesi isn’t a 100% known quantity, but at least the kid has done stuff for the big club and he’s a product of the farm system. What if Gordon sucks so badly the Yankees lose 11-2 and the Yanks miss the postseason by a game? I will point to Gordon getting the start as the reason. Bye bye Cashman. Demoralize and ruin some other farm system’s pitchers like you ruined Chamberlain.
I disagree. Cashman does not have an obligation to any prospect. The farm system has one purpose and that is to help the Yankees either by producing players capable of big league performance or providing trade chips. In this situation, they are losing neither capable players or trade chips.
On the other hand, Cashman does have an obligation to do everything in his power to help the Yankees compete at the MLB level. If he thinks that Gordon is a better candidate (regardless of the reason) to internal options, then that’s absolutely the choice he should go with.
I trust the Yankees know their options and have made an educated decision.
And it doesn’t say much for our farm that he thinks this guy is a better option.
It sure doesn’t.
Starting Gordon is also saying Cashman doesn’t think a Yankee farmhand is good enough to pitch the first three innings of a game, for why not start Noesi and have Gordon on standby for mopup if needed?
Where did I say Cashman was obligated to start a farm system pitcher over Gordon? Nowhere. I’m merely saying there are plenty of farmhands who could make the start based on what they’ve done for the AAA Yankees over Gordon who has done nothing for the Yankees AAA team and barely anything in MLB (4 games three years ago.) The Yankees have only reports about Gordon with maybe one live looksee. They have that and way more about their farmhands. I’d go with the seen not heard and read. When you start Gordon over Noesi, you are saying Gordon is better than Noesi, and if that’s true, that’s a sad indictment on your farm system since Noesi is the AAA starter you called up out of all the starters down on the farm.
I don’t have a problem with the Yankees acquiring Gordon, I have a problem with them starting him over their entire farm system because it’s a red flag to other teams that the Yankees don’t have a good enough farm system to call up an arm for five innings. It tips your hand that you have no confidence in your own, so why should Kenny Williams give up Gavin Floyd for whoever among them?
If Cashman thinks Gordon is a better option than any one of his internal options, then his farm system sucks dick and he’s not getting a #3 or better starter or a top-flight reliever by the trading deadline with it, not when your internal options aren’t good enough to make a start or two over a castoff from someone else’s AAA team. And who is that AAA team an affliate of? The Phillies. If the Phillies let go of this guy, he must suck.
I don’t trust the Yankees know their options and have made an educated decision, and have presented my case why, and I think it’s a strong one.
Starting Gordon is saying your farm system isn’t good enough to make two starts in place of Colon or keeping them from possibly sucking with the big club and losing trade value.
Cashman is afraid to call up Montero because he’s afraid Montero will go 3 for 28 with 15 strikeouts and everyone will say “This is who he didn’t want to trade in a package for Cliff Lee?”
One more thing:
‘Say Noesi got the start over Gordon and Noesi flat-out sucked (2 1/3 IP 7 H 5 ER.) Only an idiot would say “Shoulda went with Gordon.” Yeah, shoulda went with a guy with ZERO MLB starts, time with the Yankees, or time with an AL team, who last pitched in MLB three years ago, and pitched only 4 games then. Right. He was the surer ticket to a win. PSSSHHHHH!!!!!
Noesi sat in the pen for two weeks without throwing a pitch and the very first opportunity he gets (or Phelps or Warren for that matter) and they go out and sign a journeymen with 22 minor league starts to his name. The only rational reason I can come up with is they must “see something” in Gordon and don’t want to miss the opportunity to obtain/retain him.
Yeah. Its dissapointing because its fun to get a look at kids. But,gordon has been a rp, he can hit and play of in an emergency. Hes had an insane year at aaa.
Im fine with it. If it works out he will be valuable in interleague. And since so many of you have an irrational hatred of prospects pitching in relief this works because if he pitches well he has expwrience in short and long relief.
Yeah, I’m relieved to know we have a failed hitter pitching for us in the odd chance he’ll need to hit for us during interleague play. Pardon me for questioning this move, I did not see the hidden genius in it.
I wouldn’t say hatred of starting pitching prospects pitching in relief is irrational, it’s based on real-life Exhibits A and B:
Exhibit A: Chamberlain
Exhibit B: Hughes
It is no coincidence that one guy went from starting all year one year then relieving a ton the next (Chamberlain) while the other went from relieving all year one year then starting all year the next (Hughes) and both were seriously injured after doing this. That use is why both have yet to get their careers going since 2007, and it’s 2011.
Cashman has treated these two horribly.
I’ll agree they haven’t handled them well. at. all. but we really don’t know if the handling was the cause or if they were just predisposed. The bigger problem IMO is ignoring how often even the most talented prospects fail, we should be using at least some of them to acquire surefire aces.
Can’t argue with any of the stuff posted here, but if this guy is pitching this well in AAA and the Yanks can get him for nothing then give him an opportunity to show what he’s got, then I say go for it!
Gordon’s basically a neophyte @ pitching, it possibly takes a couple of years to master this art, wouldn’t you say? Could be that the lights finally turned on and he’s a legitimate MLB pitcher… or maybe not! He needs the opportunity and he ain’t signing with the Yanks without that opportunity.
He’s got as many mL innings as Noesi so I’d think this season is more SSS than any lights turning on.
Im not saying I LOVE it but easy. If he did thise 12 starts in scranton he would be called on ahead of phelps and mitchell warren. Noesi can only go 75 pitches.
Its simply not a huge deal.
Save the anger for cervelli, the one truly indefensible roster decision at the moment.
Im at the point id prefer gus. Or romine.
Or that other guy. You know the best position prosprct in the system in a decade and a half who happens to be a c/dh (our two weakest spots atm)
DH isn’t one of our weakest spots at the moment. Posada has one of the longest hitting streaks on the team right now, and is hitting well over .300 in that time. At this point you can’t bench Posada with how well he’s played, if you stuck with him through the bad why get rid of him during the good?
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I don’t believe the Yankees want to start Noesi, I believe they want to use him in a bullpen role for the rest of the year similar to Alfredo Aceves. A guy who can come in and pitch anywhere from 1 important inning, to 3 or 4 innings on a night the starter comes out early. He doesn’t project well in the rotation, and the Yanks are on record saying they like him so much they want to see what he can do in 1-2 inning stretches. Seems to me they simply don’t want to have him start, and then be out another week like when he pitched 6 innings last time. The next time he’s brought up, I believe they are doing so to make him an important part of the pen the rest of the way.
I love the “he doesn’t want them to lose value in the major leagues” argument, like no team in baseball has actual scouts that do nothing but go to minor league games, watch, and evaluate the talent. Trust me, they know what we have and don’t have. No one is going to look at a rookie struggle and then decide he was never worth anything. If their scouts like him before they will still like them now.
It makes me laugh how many GMs we have on this site, yet not one of them has a job with the MLB, or even the MiLB.
People are acting like Hector Noesi is actually considered a top flight starting prospect, when most scouts see him as nothing more than a future reliever. The Yankees themselves have said they want to shorten his outings to see what kind of value he has in 1-2 inning stretches.
No one is acting like that.
And I’ll be sure to point out that you don’t have a job in baseball next time you play message board GM.
What happened to Carlos Silva?
Maybe Is time to do the great trade we all been waiting for
the yankee have always had a streak of keeping their prospects away from the show. i agree with their decision here because they hold them back until they have the opportunity to trade for “sure thing”. what would you do? take a proven starter or take a gamble on a rookie that has not proven himself. As for starting gordon i completely agree with cashman. gordon may not have major league experience but at 32 years old he’s still playing in aaa. he not only wanted it more. he deserved it with a great era, whip, and 5 solid starts. he had great confidence and did a great job..