There’s been a bit of bellyaching among some fans and in the blogosphere about the Pedro Feliciano signing. Not much, but enough that it needs to be addressed. Some fans feel Brian Cashman overpaid for a LOOGY when there were better options available, others worry about his workload. I’ll address each of these one by one.
The Yanks overpaid-Not really. While we all know the entire market has been inflated this year, this deal fits in the context of what other Lefty relievers have been receiving this year. Scott Downs, by far the best of the lefty reliever group and a Type A free agent got 15 mil from the Angels. Randy Choate, a pure LOOGY in every sense of the term (.529 OPS against facing Lefties/1.162 OPS against facing Righties) received a 2.5 mil deal from the Marlins. Feliciano fits right between those two, which is what his talent level would suggest.
Feliciano’s not just a pure LOOGY-Unlike Choate, Feliciano can be called upon to get righty and lefty batters out. In 2010 his OPS against was .574 facing left handed batters, and .831 facing righty batters. His 3 year splits are more pronounced (.583/.898) but he showed an improved change last year, so he appears to be evolving as he ages. When you have a clean inning or 1 out situation where 2 of the next 3 batters are left handed, you can call upon Pedro to get the job done. In that sense he’s better and more useful than someone like Randy Choate. This is likely a moot point since the Yanks will feature him as a Lefty specialist, but he’s there if and when you need him.
Fuentes is Better-As Chris pointed out in Matt’s piece on Feliciano yesterday, there’s a wide gap between the two players, which isn’t arguable. Joel Sherman reported that it was a tough call for the Yanks, but the shorter commitment with Feliciano was a deciding factor. Given the volatile nature of relievers, I can’t fault Cashman for being risk averse in these situations. Damaso Marte was as much of a sure thing as could be when the Yanks traded for him in 2008, and the 3 year deal they gave him wound up being almost completely wasted money. Also, the Yanks may see an opportunity with Feliciano by reducing his workload, his 1st half/2nd half splits suggest he wore down and lost some effectiveness over the course of the season.
He’s thrown too much-I would tend to be concerned about this as well, but as with CC Sabathia in 2009 there’s simply very little evidence that his heavy workload has seriously affected him. His 87.2 MPH average fastball velocity from 2010 was down a shade from 2009, but exactly the same as his career average. His contact rates were up in 2010, posting career highs both inside and outside the strike zone. But he was also throwing more change ups, which was an effective (+4.3) pitch for him. Relievers will often use the change to get an easy ground ball, and his .56 GB% was the 2nd highest of his career. With Francisco Rodriguez getting suspended from the team and Feliciano called upon to be the Closer (a role he volunteered for) he was probably just called upon more often with men on base and looking for double plays. As Joe P. points out in a piece posted today on Fangraphs, while Feliciano has led the National League in appearances over the past 3 years, he’s 48th in pitches thrown. So he’s appeared a lot, but not worked all that much when he’s out there. He also has never been on the disabled list at any point of his career.
He’s an ex-Met-Most of the complainers don’t come out and say this, but I suspect this has something to do with the griping. They think the losing culture in Flushing has affected him somehow. They think he’s a product of pitcher-friendly Citifield. He’s always been much more of a ground ball pitcher than a fly ball pitcher, so it really shouldn’t matter much where he pitches. And as Chris Lundberg points out, we’ve done pretty well (Cone/Gooden/Strawberry) with players from the Met category, Armando Benitez notwithstanding.
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29 Responses to Addressing the Feliciano complaints
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TIQ IQ
I agree with the spirit of what was written, except for:
“This is likely a moot point since the Yanks will feature him as a Lefty specialist.”
I’m not sure I believe that. We’ve seen Girardi ignore pitcher splits before (notably with Chan Ho Park (early season) and Boone Logan (late season)) so it’s altogether possible that Feliciano faces more than his fair share of RHB, given Girardi’s penchant for bullpen generalists (as opposed to specialists).
That doesn’t change the overall tenor of what you’ve written but it does (slightly) diminish the argument that the 2011 Yankees will be insulated from Feliciano’s RHB issues because he’s being signed as a LOOGY.
I hope that having a second lefty in the pen now will make girardi more likely to use logan at least as a pure LOOGY. I guess we’ll see when the season starts.
The only thing wrong with this article is that Choate got 2.5 million for 2 years not per year…. so he essentially got 1.25 M per year about 3.75 M less than Feliciano per year over the same length but as you stated Feliciano is a better overall pitcher and I wouldn’t want Choate on the the Yankees again.
Actually, that’s not what I said. Baseball contracts are generally viewed in total since the money is guaranteed (unlike some other sports). So I said Downs got 15 mil, Choate 2.5, Feliciano was in the middle. He’s better than Choate, not as good as Downs, so it was a fair market deal.
I wasn’t really considering Downs in this same group since he is no way a LOOGY and will probably be the setup man on the Angels and therefore would fit into a different bullpen group and pay range.
If you are saying Downs was paid to be a LOOGY then I can go along with that until he is crowned the setup man… but Choate and Feliciano can’t and won’t be setup men therefore I put them in a different category and salary demands.
However if both deals are 2 years and one is making 2.5 total and the other is making then one is making more than 3 times more for the same job or at least no 3x the job so it is an “overpay” if choate is your starting point for a pure LOOGY.
We’ll see once the season starts… personally I would like to see Fuentes get signed.
The money it would take to sign him would start to create an extremely overpaid bullpen. The Yanks now have Feliciano to hedge against Logan’s potential ineffectiveness. How many $4M LHP’s do you want in the bullpen?
I hadn’t even considered this, but Feliciano AND Fuentes is doable payroll-wise, and would be devastating against the lefty heavy Sox.
I would rather see the Yankees make a trade with the Nationals for Sean Burnett before signing Fuentes to a multiple year deal.
A lot of things are doable payroll-wise. But why soak up all of the Cliff Lee money on LOOGY’s?
I have concerns about his age, but Fuentes is ANYTHING but a LOOGY. His splits are good both ways.
Exactly Fuentes’s is a legit setup man and over the past 3 years has beena legit closer saving 102 games in 117 tries.
Because you wouldn’t be soaking up all of the Cliff Lee money on LOOGY’s. You would be soaking up some. Also, these are short-term commitments, so the Yanks would still have flexibility.
I would love to see Fuentes hop on board, but not for more than 2 years. If he gets a 3-year deal elsewhere (which I imagine he probably will), then best of luck to him
Max would you sign Fuentes a 2 year deal and a team option like they did with Feliciano but for say 5-6 million a year?
I actually don’t think you would be soaking up any of the Cliff Lee money on LOOGY’s, since I’m pretty sure Martin and Feliciano were going to be Yankees with or without Lee we have yet to start spending any of that money and if we sign Fuentes he won’t be a LOOGY he will be our setup man and mostly pitch in the 8th allowing Logan and Feliciano to be used against nothing more than left handed bats both saving Pedro’s arm and allowing Logan to have the best chance to succeed since he dominated lefties last year.
I agree with this wholeheartedly. Fuentes would give us a tool against all batters, not just LHers. He is versatile, strong, reliable, has endurance, etc. (Of course, one of his few ML mistakes was that pitch over the plate to Arod in the 2009 ALCS–a moment that will live in my memory forever.–but this was the exception–He is a tough competitor.)
I don’t adhere to the creed “oh, our bullpen is good enough”. Why not try to build the leagues’ best and most dominent bullpen? I’d love to see Cashman sign Both Fuentes, and Soriano.
meh. Soriano seems like he’ll command at least 3 years/$24mm. Sure, he looks good now, but signing a reliever not named Mariano Rivera to a multi-year contract is almost always a bad idea. When you consider how much he’ll command (and the fact that he prob wants to close), it just doesn’t seem worth the risk.
If Fuentes will take Jenks money (2 years/$12mm), I’d say roll the dice. Even then you’d have about $35-40mm devoted to the bullpen. That’s pretty wild.
Max, you are assuming that it will take a bundle of yrs, and dollars, to sign Soriano. But there a number of scenarios where a creative Cashman makes this happen under realistic constraints.
My favorite scenario is similar to what Boras and Theo Epstein worked out last yr with Beltre. He too wanted the moon but didn’t get it, then worked out the reasonable 1-yr deal.
So, within the possibilities, there are ways for Cashman to do this (sign Fuentes and Soriano to create a Bullpen for the Ages.)
Also, signing Feliciano maybe didn’t add anything to the payroll for next yr. His $4M salary is maybe balanced out by the insurance paying Damaso Marte’s $4M salary because he is hurt
“But there a number of scenarios where a creative Cashman makes this happen under realistic constraints.”
I hope you’re right, but I think you’re wrong. Considering how this off-season has played out for the Angels, I think they’ll sign Beltre and Soriano (and probably regret both signings).
“Also, signing Feliciano maybe didn’t add anything to the payroll for next yr. His $4M salary is maybe balanced out by the insurance paying Damaso Marte’s $4M salary because he is hurt ”
If you feel like explaining this to me that would be great because I don’t exactly understand what you’re saying here.
Would also lose their first round pick by signing Soriano. The cavalry is on the way from the minors; no need to panic.
“Unlike Choate, Feliciano can be called upon to get righty and lefty batters out. In 2010 his OPS against was .574 facing left handed batters, and .831 facing righty batters. His 3 year splits are more pronounced (.583/.898) but he showed an improved change last year, so he appears to be evolving as he ages. ”
I agree with the premise of this article, but this is a bit of a stretch. Those are significant splits.
Leftys hit Pedro Feleciano like they’re Cesar Izturis, and rightys hit Feleciano like they’re Evan Longoria or Adam Dunn. Even his OPS against rightys last season was more than 100 points worse the league average. And a 60 inning sample size of marginally better performance is more likely just a random fluctuation than an actual improvement.
I do agree thought that bringing in Feleciano was a solid move. Given the our strength on the right side of the bullpen (Mo, Joba, Robertson), I like bringing in a LOOGY. And three years, 15 million dollars is almost always a bad idea for a reliever, outside of the Riveras and Sorias of the world. Feleciano is a good addition to the bullpen, and we got him relatively cheep, but he is a LOOGY.
That’s fair, but the context was in comparing him to Randy Choate, who is unusable against Righty hitters. Choate turns all of Baseball into Albert Pujols when facing right handers. I never said Pedro’s righty splits were good, just acceptable and he’s more usable than Choate, which is true. I also went on to say it’s a moot point, since the Yanks will probably use him as a LOOGY.
Soriano is wanting a 4 or 5 year deal so if that is what it will take from the Angels I really can’t see them doing it, I imagine you are right and they will spend whatever takes to regret signing Beltre, but old fan could be right here if Rafael doesn’t get that kind of length then he may be willing to consider a 1 year deal for 10-11 million so he can make money and then re-try for the multiple years next offseason and while the Yankees don’t want to pay that much for one year you can more than afford it.
I believe we could get Fuentes for a deal around what we were willing to give Wood something along the lines of 2/10 but add in a club option like with Feliciano because even though he is lefty Fuentes slides into the setup man/8th inning role and with his experience closing ball games he can help rest Mo in more than one way.
Mariano, Fuentes, Robertson, Logan, Joba, Feliciano, Romulo Sanchez?, Mitre?, Prior?, Aceves?
Especially in the 7th-9th innings that is one of the most stacked bullpens in the league.
Yeah, I’d like to see if I could get Fuentes for 2 years instead of 3, and maybe overpay a bit per year. See if 2/12 or 2/13 gets it done. I wouldn’t go 7 per, he’s not better than Downs who got 5 per.
No he isn’t better than Downs but I agree with the numbers you have put out because he basically covers both of our “needs” in the pen, someone who can bridge to Mo and someone who can take saves away from Mo.
We have some players coming from the minors but honestly outside of Montero none of the top upside prospects will make an impact this season because none of them are close enough, the only one of the Bs that could even see big league action is Brackman and while he could go to the pen and be great we can’t expect a Phil Hughes like season and do we really want another Joba situation?
Soriano wouldn’t be a panic move it would simply an expensive move I wouldn’t want to give him a 4-5 year deal but for 1 or 2 years I think he could justify a pick considering he would give us quite possibly the best setup/closer combo ever if both pitch as they did a season ago.
The Yankees need to add a setup man one way or the other because going into the season with a weakened starting rotation and Joba/Robertson as bridges to Mo isn’t the most assured thing and both are better off in middle relief roles, whether you want it to be Fuentes, Rauch, Soriano or another name out their we will/should end up with one of them and Soriano is the best so his name coming up shouldn’t be considered “panic” as I see it refered to so often.
This team isn’t as dead as the media would have us believe and if we can strengthen our bullpen and get another starting pitcher (Jackson or Carmona via trade perhaps) who could pitch in a game 4 in the playoffs we could have a chance to not only get to the dance but take the pretty girl home as well. Our lineup is every bit as good as Boston and while our rotation isn’t as deep (as long as Pettitte is back and health by playoff time) with that added arm for insurance and depth we can be as good as anyone else.
That’s why I don’t see adding a Soriano as panic but a calculated move to take innings not only off your starters in the regular season but also in the postseason as well.
Think about a scenario under which Hughes pitches with a 1 run lead but after 6 is gassed and can’t go back out, Joe can call on Soriano for the 7th and maybe even some if not all of the 8th before going to Mo, or Soriano pitches the 7th and Mo gets the entire last 2 innings either way you have shortened every playoff win to a 6 inning affair. Theoretically you could even have a game where they both throw 2 innings in a game 7 or something.
I don’t agree none of them are close enough. I could see all 3 Killer B’s as September call ups at worst, and if Betances and Banuelos pick up where they left off last year they could easily find their way onto the big league roster by July or August. Don’t forget Joba blew through 3 levels in one year, and Ian Kennedy saw big league action in September of his first year with the organization. It can happen. Betances and Brackman are both on the 40 man, so you don;t even need to make a roster move.
Joba Chamberlain was ruined by blowing thorugh 3 innings in one year so I really wouldn’t be supporting we go that route, Joba got 1 start in triple A and 2 or 3 bullpen appearances to get him ready for the major leagues, he never got a chance to go back down and his overall development as a starter suffered and eventually was shutdown.
Betances was on a 65-75 pitch pitch count last year and unless we have absolutely no plans to stick with him as a starter he shouldn’t even sniff the big leagues this year, he has absolutely no triple A experience and he has a grand total of 14 innings in double A. I am absolutely against rushing Dellin he needs to start the year in double A and have the rest of the time after his cal lup to face and adjust to triple A competition and if he handles that well then he can either battle for a spot in spring training come 2012 or be one of the first pitchers called up in 2012, either way 2011 should be a pure developmental year for Dellin Betances and I see nothing but bad coming from calling him up too soon.
Manuel Banuelos is 20 years old (a total of 15 innings in double) and I don’t think it would be wise to rush his arm into more stressed innings than we have to and putting him on the grand stage so early in his mental and physical development could have the worlds “surgery” and “rehab” all over it, young kids try to throw as hard as they can when they reach the show often resulting in bad control and injuries and I fear no one may be more susceptible to this than a 20 year old kid trying to make a name for himself.
Banuelos should have a similar year to Betances he should start out in double and spend the rest of his time after his call up in triple A and he should be shooting to make the team out of spring training in 2012, if I was in charge only Brackman would see the big leagues this year out of those 3.
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