(Originally published here, reposted for discussion.)
A few days ago, über-writer Joe Posnanski published a piece in which he asked which Yankee was more valuable throughout his career: Derek Jeter or Mariano Rivera?
The common answer I came across was: “head says Jeter, heart says Mo.”
The answer I came across that made me want to come here and go blog? “Jorge Posada”.
It’s almost funny, really, how spoiled we Yankee fans have been with Jorge Posada the entire length of his career. As long as Posada’s been playing, he’s been overshadowed by the likes of Derek Jeter, Alex Rodriguez, Mariano…even other ‘core’ members of the Dynasty teams, like Bernie Williams, Tino Martinez and Paul O’Neil.
One can argue that it wasn’t until 2008, when Posada missed most of the season with a shoulder injury and the Yankees were left with the workings of Jose Molina and Chad Moeller, that the fans got any idea of how important Posada’s bat was to the team. Even then, though, the lack of Posada from that line up was perhaps overshadowed by the Yankees having Sidney Ponson and Darrell Rasner starting way too many games, as well as the absence of Matsui and the less-than-stellar years from Robinson Canó and Melky Cabrera.
Yet if you step back and looks at Posada’s numbers, you realize the Yankees haven’t just been lucky with their starting catcher of the past decade and a half; they’ve been downright blessed, sent a gift from the baseball gods on high.
How does it stack up?
You could look at it two ways: you could compare Posada’s numbers to all of those who caught or are still catching during the length of Posada’s career (the sheer longevity of Posada is probably one of the most underrated aspects of his career), or you could compare Posada’s numbers to those in the Hall of Fame.
Since I’ve got too much time on my hands, and B-Ref’s play index is that awesome, I went ahead and did both.
Comparison One: Posada vs. MLB catchers, 1995-2010.
Search parameters: 50% or more games played at catcher, minimum 3000 plate appearances, results sorted by my favorite offensive stat (despite its faults), OPS.
What do you notice?
Of the players listed, only Piazza–almost a Hall of Fame shoo-in–and Mauer have posted better OPS numbers. That’s not bad company, and Posada has had, by far, the longer career.
Among active catchers, Posada ranks second in these categories, behind only Joe Mauer (yes, that’s right, Posada outranks Pudge Rodriguez). Posada has more walks than any other active catcher meeting the search parameters, and trails Rodriguez by just two home runs, a virtual deadlock, if you will.
Okay, you say, but what about the game’s historical elite? How does Posada stack up against them?
Comparison Two: Posada vs. MLB catchers in the Hall of Fame
Parameters: Min 3000 plate appearances, 50% or more games at C, sorted by OPS/
Posada’s career numbers, for comparison:
The HoF table:
Posada’s career OPS of 0.857 would sit him fifth on that list–well within Hall of Fame territory, and almost .30 points higher than the Yankees’ most iconic catcher, the great Yogi Berra.
If one sorts the table by other offensive factors, Posada’s career still rates him within the fold: he’d rank 10th in hits, fifth in doubles, fifth in home runs, third in walks, ties for fourth in on base average and virtually tied for fifth in slugging.
Even Posada’s Plate Appearances (6639) would rank him eighth out of the thirteen listed; on the lower end, perhaps, but unlike everyone else on the HoF list, Posada is still active.
Has Posada been more valuable to the Yankees over his career than Jeter or Rivera?
Posada doesn’t have the ‘face of the Yankees’ watchamacallit that Jeter does, or the Godliness of Mo (apologies to my religious readers), but that doesn’t make his contributions any less important.
Getting a decent starting catcher in Major League Baseball is hard. There’s a reason that the Yankees are arguably deepest at catcher in their minor league system (Montero/Romine/Murphy/Sanchez, to name a few): it’s a premium position, and a catcher that can hit can net you lots of goodies on July 31.
To get a decent starting catcher that plays for your team for fifteen seasons without bolting is even harder, even if you are the New York Yankees.
To get a starting catcher with incredible longevity and offensive numbers that say he might very well belong in the Hall of Fame (well, given recent inclusions, definitely belongs there), well, that’s just overkill.
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12 Responses to The Case for Jorge Posada
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TIQ IQ
What a joke.Jorge has always been a competitor but his flaws are too numerous to count.
In the early years ,he often struck out with pitches in the dirt in clutch situations, when he didn’t hit into double plays.
He’s always been, not only a station to station slow runner but a poor runner who doesn’t judge balls off his teammates bats and makes many base running blunders.
Though he was an above average thrower, he never blocked the plate in his life, pretty much has played 15 years without a collision at home.He’s good on pop-ups (was a former infielder) but was pretty terrible his entire career blocking wild pitches and couldn’t move well enough to field little nubbers or bunts very well either, doesn’t fire out from behind the plate.
Many pitchers here HATED throwing to him and more guys “couldn’t pitch in NY” when he was the catcher than ever before or after.Calls a stupid game and doesn’t frame very well, though he has improved lately, maybe from watching a rookie like Cervelli do it propperly.Jorge was a passed ball waiting to happen.
Became a better and more clutch hitter last few years but he was by far the least valuable of the core 4.To compare his value to Jeter’s or MAriano’s is a joke.
dumbass
If you’re going to be fair, put Piazza and Pudge in with the HoF. Both had careers that started several years before Posada, and easily outstrip his longevity.
Both guys are slam dunk Hall of Famers. Posada is a closer call, but deserves to be in.
When arguing his bat, there’s no question he’s been one of the elite at his position for a very long time. When discussing his defense, his deficiencies have long driven his critics mad. The problem with this debate is that the offensive people have all sorts of numbers to back up their claims, while defense at the Catcher position has always been one of the most difficult to quantify.
http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/two-dimensions-of-catching/
Whats the Catcher’s fault and whats the pitchers? How does his game calling impact things, if at all? Was it a wild pitch or a passed ball? Did the runner steal the base on the pitcher or was the throw bad? Because of the two-sided nature of the position, the blame is usually split up somewhere between. To me, Catching has always been a defense-first position. We can dismiss a LF defensive inadequacies because they get so few chances, but Catchers are involved in (almost) every single play of the game. His Catching fundamentals are bad, his decision making worse, and his refusal to block the plate is unforgivable. The whole point of fielding is to prevent runs, you have to do everything possible as the last line of defense. His base running is straight out of little league. On the plus side, he does his pregame homework, works hard and has been above average some years in throwing out baserunners.
If you’re going to be fair, you have to subtract his glove from his bat to get a net value. To me, he’s always been average at the position with a very plus bat and a very minus glove.
I think every attempt to quantify defense at the position still has him as a net very positive, to the extent where I’ve yet to see such a study eliminate him from HOF consideration. His defense has gotten worse over the last two or three years. Before that, it was fairly adequate, with blocking the plate the only real issue. And to be honest, blocking the plate for a real collision comes up maybe twice a month. When your catcher has a bat like Jorge’s, Im fine conceding those runs to keep him healthy.
At what point do you draw the line though? I don’t think anyone would argue Piazza is a HOF, but if you go soley on his defense you could say he was a minus.
I didn’t see him play everyday, but I thought Piazza was acceptable. Blocked the plate well, good on pop ups, pitchers liked him for the most part. He had a few years early where he allowed too many passed balls, and got better at that as he matured. Career caught stealing was 23%, which isn’t great but is something you can live with.
Almost threw the remote at the TV during the 8th last night when Posada failed to even attempt to frame any of Robertson’s borderline pitches. After a decade and a half, he still pisses me off. But no doubt a HOF bat.
When did statistics and not eyeballs become the determining facotr for the HOF.
It’s the reason mediocre pitchers like Don Sutton and Niekro are in for having played a long time.Neither was a great pitcher and neither belongs there.
Posada is not a great catcher, never was, he’s a pretty good hitter (not a .320 hitter) at a positon where hititng is secondary to defense, unless you hit amazingly great like Piazza did.
What you’re fine in conceding doesn’t make someone a HOF’er.If he batted .320 lifetime with 500 HR’s that’s a HOF’er.
You only get credit for being a .276 lifetime hitter with 100 RBI’s once in your career on a great team, in a HR hitters ballpark, if you’re a solid to above average defender at a DEFENSIVE position like catcher.
These stats are worthless in a vaccum.
He was a poor defnesive catcher his enitre career and an above average hitter.If he only played 10 years would he have been a HOF’er.
No, just an above average hitting catcher.
Stats should never be looked at in a vacuum. When compared to other catchers, his contemporaries and the current HOF catchers, Posada stacks up quite favorably.