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The news that Nomar Garciaparra retired this morning brought back an old argument that used to rage between Yankees and Red Sox fans: which club’s shortstop was better? In terms of career value, the obvious answer is Jeter, as he continues to play at a high level while Nomar is hanging up his spikes. The more interesting question is, which player was better during the time span from 1997-2004, when Nomar was manning shortstop for the Sox?
In terms of perception, the two players were fairly equal. Over the 8 year span, Jeter made 6 All-Star teams and finished in the top-10 in MVP voting 4 times, while adding one Gold Glove. Meanwhile, Nomar made 5 All-Star teams but finished in the top-10 in MVP voting 5 times. From what I recall, the perception was that Nomar was a slightly flashier offensive player, but that Jeter was close in that regard and was more dependable in the clutch and a greater winner.
In terms of statistics, however, Nomar was almost certainly the better player over the period, and likely would have been recognized as such if the current statistical revolution had occurred 5-10 years earlier. Let’s take a look at the WAR numbers on both players, courtesy of baseballprojection.com:
Derek Jeter:
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Nomar Garciaparra:
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Jeter was worth exactly 41 wins above replacement from 1997 through 2004. Nomar was worth 41.5 wins over the span, despite playing just 21 games in 2001 and 81 games in 2004 due to injury. That means that when he was on the field, Nomar provided more value than Jeter did, with Derek’s poor defense towards the end of the period really hurting his overall WAR. However, the first part of that sentence is the real caveat here. If Nomar Garciaparra had Derek’s durability, he likely would be remembered as the better player. However, his inability to stay healthy torpedoed that legacy, and renders the comparison moot. In the end, Nomar’s story is one that engenders a discussion of “what could have been.”
What do you think about the Jeter-Nomar debate?
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36 Responses to Who Was Better, Nomar Or Derek?
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TIQ IQ
Well, these players are not fair to compare, since Nomar took steroids.
A story at Bleacher Report that backs me up:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/136971-nomar-juiced-no-doubt-about-it
(Just look at his back in the SI cover)
I’m not so certain about that. He didnt bulk up everywhere like a user usually does (look at the lower body on guys like Canseco and McGwire). He bulked up his upper body only, which seems more in line with weight training. I’m not saying he did not do it, but a slideshow of pictures is not really conclusive to me.
Personally I completely believe that Nomar took steroids.
That being said, do we know that Jeter didn’t? No we don’t. And, assuming Nomar used and Jeter didn’t, do we know that Nomar still wouldn’t have been a better player over a certain number of years? No, we don’t. Nomar’s peak was absolutely ridiculous. Had he remained at SS, and remained healthy, simply putting up another 5 or so league average seasons would have put him in the hall. He was that damn good for a 5 year period or so.
Nomar has been marred by injuries since 2004. He could have lost weight due to those. Pictures are the worst form of “proof” for steroid allegations.
Easy, count the rings!!
Moshe, please. On an level playing field, Jeter’s better for the length of his career, his consistency and durability. But the field is far from level. The very fact that you posted this is another step in the process of legitimizing the careers of cheaters. Garciaparra – and many others like him – disgraced the game and its’ legacy. What’s next, who’s better Aaron or Bonds? Bench or Piazza? Brady Anderson or DiMaggio?
Where is the evidence? I’m not going to make assumptions when I have nothing to support the accusations. It’s possible he was on steroids, but to just assume guilt seems silly. Same with Piazza.
As to your comparisons, I would take Bonds over Aaron, but I’m not big on disqualifying steroid users. I understand those who do so, but only where there is evidence.
Is it odd that before today I’d never heard anything about Nomar taking steroids?
No. No one thinks about these guys until much later, then look back and say “hmm, he bulked up.”
Nomar absolutely was a steroid user.Well known fact.Shortened his career too.
Really? A well-known fact? By whom? I’d love to see the documentation of that fact. Because I’ve never heard any single bit of evidence to substantiate it.
What concrete, non-circumstantial evidence is there?
I watched Nomar and regularly read the articles on his training regimen because I live in Maine and that’s what you’d get. He certainly did bulk up and gained power but unlike Giambi and Canseco he didn’t key on lower body weights as much as speed and agility. He was lean and muscular but gained pounds with low body mass index in a short period. I wondered then about the juice simply because so many players had ” harder workouts” at the same time and his recovery time from intense training was amazing with a big jump in one season. My suspicions on some of the other players has been confirmed and some, like Nomar, we may never know but the timing, weight gain and breakdown fit the pattern.
I would have to say that Nomar was the better player when he was on the field. If Nomar had the ability to remain as healthy as Derek Jeter, for as long as Derek Jeter, then Nomar would have been recognized as the better overall player. Throw the steroid talk out the window in this discussion because there is no proof to support those beliefs.
I think about not just durability, but longevity at the position. Even if Nomar was healthy, would he still be playing SS? If not, when would he have moved? It’s been six years since ’04…speaking without stats in front of me, my sense of things is that Jeter’s ongoing excellence at the position ultimately pushes him above Nomar.
jeter ..no contest.. how can you put to roid guys in the same catagory as jeter.. their stats are tainted…
1. Where is the proof that Nomar took steroids?
2. What if Jeter took steroids, but never got caught?
I love all this baseless conjecture. If Nomar had played the best part of his career for a team not in the A.L. East, I doubt everyone would be screaming ‘steroids!!!!’
Nomar was 165 lbs when he was in early 20′s and came up with the Red Sox.He then gained 25 lbs pretty quickly on a lithe slim build like many other players suddenly did.Just because BAseball refuses to tell you who the other 100-150 players who tested positive are, no reason to assume that guys like NOMAR who muscled up out of nowhere in their mid 20′s weren’t doing them.Especially interesting is he started getting injured and playing worse when they started testing.
I follow College Football recruiting very closely.
Most 17-18 year old college kids, gain an enormous amount of weight lifting and working out when they get to college.
Many HS O’lineman for instance weight in the 260 range and by the time they are 20-21 after 3 years in a weightroom , weigh 300-320.
Even Linebackers are often say, 6’1 190 and are up to 230-240 by the time they are 21-22 years old.
Nomar gained his weight after 23 and he was in college with weight rooms and trainers.Why did he satrt getting big when Steroids got poular.
I went ot the DR 5 years in a row in the 90′s, for the guaranteed good winter weather and I can tell you they were laughing there about how the kids (baseball) players used to be 150 lbs and all of a sudden everybody playing ball on the Island was 190 +.
Look at the kids Yankees have in the DR playing now.Many are 160 lbs again and having trouble putting on weight.
Ever look at a photo of Pedro’s face and head with the dodgers when he was throwing 91-92-93 tops and see a photo with the Sox when he was throwing 96-97?
Different person.
Don’t give these guys the benefit of the doubt over clean players like Jeter, or if you must, do a projection of how good Jeter would have been with 20-25 lbs of additional lean muscle during those years when they were all doing roids.
Ah, so Pedro did steroids now too? I’m sorry, but Im not going to take your word for it simply because you eyeballed these guys or because of some weight gain.
Also, Pedro played for the Expos, not Dodgers, and looked exactly the same. He also won a Cy Young in Montreal.
Why are we giving Derek the benefit of the doubt? How do you know he didn’t take steroids? Maybe he just didn’t get caught.
Where is Nomar’s positive test? Saying a guy got bigger and looking at pictures of him over time is a pretty circumstantial basis for accusing him of taking steroids.
Interesting that with hundreds of them taking steroids, you look at guys who performed in “out of context” ways to their body types and you give them the benefit of the doubt when to me and I think any clear thinking individual (without an agenda) due to what we already know and due to the fact that so many of the Top statistical guys of the period are already exposed that it’s an issue of “quilty until proven innocent.”
Let baseball or the union expose the guys who were actually caught and let’s assume another 20% got away with it and then lets’ look at body types, length of careers, injuries and reasonableness and when we see Alex Rodriguez playing SS and hitting so many HR’s and we find out he was juicing since HS and we see Miquel Tejada the same, why would we think that a guy like Nomar didn’t take them when he has the same pattern.Quick weight gain, additional HR power, then injuries and lower stats and a shortened career when they started testing.
Nope, guys like him should force the Union or Baseball to show the list and prove they didn’t do it but they never will because they were juicing.
I would be shocked if Jeter was juicing.He shows no bone or muscle growth quickly.His power totals never increased.He was never injured, aside form the shoulder on the slide and he has no real drop off after testing.
That’s a bogus argument.
Jeter probably didn’t take them.The circumstantial evidence suggests Nomar probably did juice.
We’re talking logic here and since there is no criminal proceeding here, nothing wrong with suggesting NOMAR is guilty until proven innocent.
It’s easy for Baseball and the union to prove he didn’t take them.It’s on them, not me.
This never happened. And if you want to say guilty until proven innocent, thats your choice. I’ll try to write assuming innocence until proven guilty.
Uh, no, like his brother, Pedro started with the Dodgers.Look it up.I knew about him when he was in the minors with them, I grew up a Dodger fan and switched to the Yankees late in life.
My mistake.
The mistake is easy to understand.You WANT Pedro to be NOT GUILTY.
Sorry, he’s guilty and NOMAR probably is.Pedro? No question!
I always hold my tongue with you, larry, but this idiocy. I hate Pedro. Hate. I simply have zero reason at all to believe he roided. There isnt a single whit of evidence. Not one.
You’re right MM. Just because it looks, walks and quacks like a duck doesn’t mean it isn’t a very clever platypus…
Please. Pedro does not have one of the signs. Not one. This is just silliness.
Wow, I never thought my little comment would create such controversy. I strongly believe Nomar took steroids, but I also agree that Jeter might have. I did not want to start with a comment stating that Jeter may have juiced, which would have led to me being smashed by everyone else. With that said, I do not believe that Derek took roids.
For me it goes:
Jeter – NO
Nomar – YES
Pedro – Probably not
But he was part of the Red Sox who were definitely on something, as Bronson Arroyo admitted: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4368436
“”"”"In addition to A-Rod, Presinal has worked with Red Sox slugger David Ortiz and former Sox Ace Pedro Martinez. He’s also connected to Juan Gonzalez, Vladimir Guererro, Bartolo Colon, Miguel Tejada, Adrian Beltre, Moises Alou, Jose Guillen, Ervin Santana, Ruben Sierra, Francisco Cordero, Jose Mesa, and Juan Guzman, among others.
“”"”"”"”A former New York-area scout said that Presinal was with A-Rod in New York and Miami as recently as Fall 2008, despite the fact that Major League Baseball has warned all players to stay away from him.
Another source said Presinal traveled with Rodiguez for his entire 2007 MVP season, even staying in his same hotel. Presinal, however, stayed in a separate room with A-Rod’s infamous cousin, Yuri Sucart. A-Rod said Sucart injected him from 2001-2003 with an energy-boosting suplement called “boli.”
According to the report, A-Rod would avoid being seen in public with Presinal, instead meeting him in their separate hotel rooms.”"”"
Afterall, Pedro was never an erratic personality with Roids rage, throwing at guys for any reason and knocking down a 70 year old man and Pedro didn’t fall off the earth young, lose his velocity (went back to dodger velocity) after testing became the norm.
Naw, how naive.
So Drysdale knocks people down and it is tough, Pedro does it and it is rage? Silliness.
When did this spike happen? At 19 or 24? Because if it happened at 19, it is meaningless. Also, Pedro was very good in 2004 and 2005, and then he started to get hurt. This was after the 2003 list. The timelines dont match up.
Steroid use allows you to grow bigger muscles, allows you to wqorkout hard enough and often eenough ot tear the fibers mildly and have then rebuilt bigger and stronger than before.Stopping steroid use doesn’t mean the next day you are atrophied and the muscles go away.The enhanced effect can help for a long time, even arguably forever, especially when you substitue HGH for the roids which they’ve been doing for years and years anyway.
Interesting Pedro was shot velocity-wise at the age AJ Burnett is right now..
Wasn’t Nomar in Canseco’s book? I think many people have forgotten about that.