After Phil Hughes turned in an impressive effort against the Astros last night, Joe Girardi had the following to say:
“He threw the ball extremely well tonight,” Girardi said. “Attacked the strike zone. Had a good curveball. Threw some good changeups tonight. He let his fielders do the work, too. He looked good tonight. It seems like his fastball command gets better and better each outing, and that’s important.”
Being that spring training results are largely irrelevant (Hughes pitched 4 innings against scrubs from the worst lineup in the sport), it is important to see that Girardi felt Hughes was throwing well. This has rightfully lead many to proclaim Hughes as the obvious frontrunner for the 5th starter job. However, it has also lead to some posts that have imparted an air of finality to Joba Chamberlain’s career as a starter. Most notable is the following article by Joel Sherman, that I will run through in order to dispel some of the myths included therein.
Joba Chamberlain is scheduled to pitch four innings today. This is possibly the last time we will ever see him stretched out this long. He is still considered a candidate for the fifth starter’s spot and Joe Girardi is saying he will get at least one more chance after today to work in extended fashion.
But, at this point he would have to change an awful lot of minds – and quickly – that he is best suited for that job. Or else there will be no next long outing or the next long outing will merely be a formality. Today is his starting Waterloo.
I find it hard to believe that the Yankees will give up on three years of development based on 10 spring training innings. Joba had an ERA of 3.58 entering August last season, an admirable number for a pitcher in his first full year as a starter. At that point, he began to approach his career innings high and his performance suffered mightily. Basically, we are talking about two bad months as being the impetus for the Yankees sacrificing an immense amount of value for the future. I highly doubt that Brian Cashman would be that shortsighted, and I firmly believe that the loser of this competition will get another chance at the rotation. Expect both Joba and Hughes to be in the rotation in 2011. (On that note, see Fack Youk for an explanation of why sending Joba to AAA rather than the bullpen might make sense).
As I reported on Feb. 3 in this column , many Yankee officials were heading into spring already believing that Phil Hughes was going to be the fifth starter and that Chamberlain was going to be Mariano Rivera’s set-up man. That was based on how Chamberlain’s best fastball returned in the postseason as a starter and so did his confident strut – both elements mostly missing when Joba worked as a starter last year.
This is a myth. Joba’s fastball improved out of the bullpen because that is what happens to most pitchers, but his “best fastball” did not return at all. He was throwing 95-96, which is actually the velocity that he was averaging as a starter in 2008. In fact, that “best” fastball has been mostly absent from Joba’s repertoire since his shoulder injury in late 2008. Regarding the silliness of Joba’s “confident strut,” I did not see it when he nearly cost the Yankees Game 3 against the Angels (triple, sac fly, double in a tie game) and Game 4 against the Phillies (Feliz homer to tie game). He allowed 10 baserunners in 6.1 innings in the postseason. I’m not saying that he cannot be an effective reliever going forward, but the 2009 postseason is certainly not evidence that supports such a conclusion.
The Yanks truly wanted to believe his repertoire screamed front-of-the-rotation starter and they did an awful lot of work – most of it controversial based on the Joba Rules – to try to shoehorn him into that role. But actions speak louder than words. And Joba’s actions – no matter what he says – are those of someone who wants to relieve and, more important, is mentally built to relieve.
I like Joel Sherman, but this is the typical revisionist history that is only spewed by people who never heard of Chamberlain until he toed the rubber in New York. Joba was a starter in college, a starter in the minors, and became a mega-prospect based on his work in the minor league rotation. The Yankees did no shoehorning, and it was not a matter of the Yankees “truly wanting to believe” that he was a fit as a starter. On the contrary, there was not a scout in all of baseball that would have pegged Chamberlain for the bullpen before the Yankees put him there in August of 2007. He was seen as a power arm with four above average pitches, and projected as an ace. If Joba had never been put in the bullpen for that stretch run, we would be discussing whether he should be in the rotation or in Scranton, because the bullpen would not be an option.
He gets, perhaps, a final chance to change minds today. But if it is more of what we have seen so far in spring, a combination of lack of endurance and refinement, then Joba might not get another shot in five days to work extended innings. Instead, he might be heading to his old new job out of the pen; this time permanently.
I certainly hope not. If Joba Chamberlain never sees the rotation again, the Yankees will have made a massive mistake.
If you enjoyed this article, please consider sharing it!
15 Responses to Loser Of Joba-Hughes Battle Should Not Be In 'Pen Forever
Leave a Reply
TIQ IQ
Ehhhhhhhhhhh……
We need to be grooming the next Mariano over developing a top of the rotation starter which he’ll never be.
By the way, Mariano was a starter too when he came up with decent numbers. Best move ever was recognizing his starter stuff does not translate to the majors over multiple innings and moving him to the pen. 5 ‘chips later, we see it was the right call and he’s a first ballot HOF’er.
I’ve been calling for Joba to go back to the pen too. Mentally he just does not have what it takes to be a front line starter in MLB at this point. HIs stuff is best when batters only see him once, and he can go all out without regard to the strategy that all SP’s must use when pitching over 5 innings. There should be no shame in doing this whatsoever.
Mentally he just does not have what it takes to be a front line starter in MLB at this point.
Says who? How can you possibly determine that? Mo was moved because he did not have enough pitches to stick as a starter. Go look at Roy Halladay as a 23 year old, his ERA was over 10, and he already had 150+ innings of big league experiance. Should the Blue Jays have moved him to the pen because he didn’t have the mental capacity to start?
Halladay almost threw a perfect game in his 2nd start ever. You don’t put anyone in the bullpen who can do that.
Also he was sent down to completely retool his delivery when he had that bad year, something they’re not even considering with Joba.
Joba had an ERA of 3.58 entering August last season, an admirable number for a pitcher in his first full year as a starter.
In the AL East, at 23. Which is better than how Jon Lester performed over the same time frame in his early career.
What I really find interesting is that Wade Davis of the Rays is expected to be a breakout as a rookie this year and has a bright future ahead of him. He undoubtedly will go through struggles, but no one wants him in the pen, right? Davis has 36 career innings, Joba 281. And they are the same exact age. What if Joba had the same career path of Davis, got a few starts last September, would anyone think he belongs in the pen? Davis, by the way, was drafted out of High School, so he has 767 innings in the minor leagues (and not nearly as dominating as Joba was) to Joba’s 88 innings. Gee, you think Joba could use a little more seasoning as a starter before moving him to the pen? I’d say so.
I don’t understand how people think that Joba’s problems will be magically fixed in the bullpen. He’s not throwing as hard or as accurately as he did in 07-08. He was just as good starting as he was in the bullpen during those times.
Joba needs to remember how to throw the ball. Until that happens, he’s not going to do well anywhere.
I agree with EJ and the 2 commenter’s below (Trev and Ken)…the ’08 Joba before the shoulder injury when he started consistently sat in the mid-90s and on many occasions his fastball was upper-90s, since the injury he’s been at 90-92 MPH. While FB command is just as important if not more so than velocity, something is not right. While my choice is to have Joba be the 5th starter, he won’t be a top of the rotation starter moving forward unless he regains that velocity. As almost the entire NY media clamors for Joba to be shipped to the pen, say he pitches 70 innings this season, what would be a reasonable number of innings we could expec if he were switched back to a starting role in ’11?
Joba needs his old shoulder back
A few have hinted at this same question. I wounder if his shoulder is a problem…mentally or physically? Is he afraid of cutting lose or, is it…he can’t.
“I’m not saying that he cannot be an effective reliever going forward, but the 2009 postseason is certainly not evidence that supports such a conclusion.”
But Mo! He was grunting! And farting! That means he’s a ‘grunt and fart’ guy, no?
I think the point that is being neglected here is this:
Phil Hughes is a mega talent that is being neglected due to a guy that is more hype than substance as a starter. As far as I remember, Phil Hughes at 22-23 was inconsistent as a starter but went deep games at times and looked brilliant (most notably against Texas a few times). Furthermore, he came in for EXTENDED relief in a playoff pressure cooker and kept the Yankees in a game.
More so than Joba doesn’t seem like a starter, Phil Hughes is an elite talent that would be starting no question on any other team.
Most prospect experts agree that Joba is a slightly better talent. Joba also has better numbers than Hughes as a starter, and has a more diverse arsenal. It is close, but I would take Joba over Hughes.
You raise a point – one that has been confirmed by Yankees management. They took the opinions of the scouting world and made Joba a starter, effectively neglecting Phil Hughes.
Scouts have been wrong before Moshe.
Yes they have been. But Hughes has not been neglected. He was given a starting job to start 2008 and was awful, then he got hurt. I dont think anyone thought he deserved a rotation spot to start 2009. Then, during 2009, there was no point where it made sense to put Hughes in the rotation at the expense of Joba (maybe at the expense of Wang, but that has nothing to do with Joba). This spring training is the first time that the Yankees are being forced to choose between the two, and just because they choose one does not mean they do not like the other. They only have 5 spots, so one will be delayed a little longer.
Chamberlain would also be starting, no question, for any other team. In fact, if he wasn’t on the Yankees, he never would’ve relieved in the first place.
This is incredibly wrong. Joba wasn’t just hype as a starter when he pitched to a sub 3 ERA as a starter before hurting his shoulder. Why must the world act like 2008 never happened.