[image title="a-winning-friendship-yankees-af" size="full" id="14997" align="center" linkto="full" ]
With the expiration of their contracts looming, a future without Derek Jeter and Mariano Rivera is on the minds of many Yankees fans. Today, River Ave Blues asked their Twitterati the following question: which one of the two will be easier to replace once his time as a major leaguer is up? I opined that Jeter will be more difficult to replace, and my reasoning is two-fold.
1) Jeter will leave a bigger hole. Both are of the best at their respective positions, with Rivera undisputably the greatest closer of all-time. However, a transcendent everyday player provides more value than an otherworldly closer, particularly in the regular season. Just to illustrate that point, Jeter has not notched fewer than 3.7 WAR in any season since 2001. Rivera has never had a WAR in excess of 3.2. Of course, the postseason narrows the gap a bit, as Mariano essentially becomes an everyday player during the postseason, thereby maximizing his value. Even so, I believe the edge goes to Jeter.
2) Jeter will be more expensive to replace. Replacing Jeter with someone of equal value would require the acquisition of someone like Troy Tulowitzki or Hanley Ramirez. Either player would require a huge outlay, both in terms of prospects and total contract value. Meanwhile, closers such as Joakim Soria, Joe Nathan, and Jonathan Papelbon (ugh) are likely to reach free agency, and will require deals of significantly lower total value.
In sum, I believe Jeter will be more difficult to replace. Do you agree? Disagree?
Photo Credit: Reader’s Digest
If you enjoyed this article, please consider sharing it!
32 Responses to Discussion: Rivera or Jeter Harder To Replace?
Leave a Reply
TIQ IQ
The Jeter of ’09, who played great defense and was excellent offensively, is much harder to replace. Though many fans won’t admit it, the Yankees could find another a closer pretty easily. Would he be anywhere near as good as Mariano Rivera? Of course not, but it’s a lot easier to find a good relief pitcher to fill that role than it is to find a good shortstop.
Chris,
I agree but an asterick should be inserted for the postseason. During playoff time Rivera is essentially the best closer ever and the best setup man. No other RP in this era pitches in the 8th and 9th innings to close games out. For example this past postseason Rivera threw 16 innings while the 2 main set up men (Joba/Hughes) only had 6.1IP each. The last time the Yankees made the World series before this year (’03), Rivera again threw 16 innings in the postseason. So while I will agree Jeter is more valuable to replace during the regular season, in the postseason, replacing Rivera would take two top RPs (e.g. Soria and Papelbon (ugh?! ;)
That is true. The postseason is an entirely different ballgame, so to speak. I don’t think you get to that postseason without Jeter, though, whereas, the Yankees would get there without Rivera, IMO. Winning the World Series is still doable without Mo, but as we saw this past postseason, nobody is quite as good as he is in those moments.
I feel it will be much harder to replace Jeter. However it will take more time to replace Rivera. I don’t really remember if it was here in TYU or somewhere else around the internet, but a few days ago, I read something that said: “You don’t want to be ‘the guy after Mariano’! You want to be the one after that dude.”
I believe this statement is correct because, like Moshe posted, there are SS out there that could fill that hole. Not the “Capitain Yankee” role, but the high-avg. hitting, good defensive SS role. But the closer position involves other situations.
I know this is a completely separate discussion, but I can picture Joba as the future Yankee closer, and like the statement says: Joba would have to be the guy replacing the Sorias or Nathans (NOT PAPELBON!!!) who would be brought in to close for the Yanks, and this could take a few years.
So… Jeter “wins” the “difficulty argument” but just because of his clubhouse/leader on the field role.
What may be absolutely irreplaceable for both Jeter and Rivera is the leadership that they provide — Jeter among the everyday players, and Mariano with the pitchers. Not leadership in the sense that they take other players aside, or are the mouthpieces for the team in front of the media, but rather leadership in that they set an example for other players in how to play the game. You can’t go out and buy a player that will provide that type of leadership, and both will be sorely missed in that regard.
Whew! Put that in bronze, Steve.
Going to agree with others that Jeter is harder to replace. In fact, I know this sounds blasphemous, but a good (not even great) SS is harder to replace than the greatest closer ever. Positional values are too great in gap.
Jeter is much more valuable than Rivera for all the reasons mentioned but taking the question literally Rivera is harder to replace.
Isn’t value relative to a replacement? Meaning, isn’t Jeter more valuable simply because it would be harder to replace him with someone close to his talent level than it would be to replace Mo?
Sometimes I doubt your commitment to Sparkle Motion.
Value is relative to replacement if you are talking about players who play the same position. Another way of saying what I was trying to say is its easier to find a shortstop who can provide Jeter’s production than a closer that can provide Mo’s production at closer. Mo is the greatest closer of all time and we’re more likely to find someone of Jeter’s calibur at SS than Mo’s calibur at closer. However, I absolutely agree that its far more important to try to replace Jeter’s production than Mo’s. As amazing as Mo has been, a closer who pitches 50-70 innings a year just isn’t that important in the larger scheme of things. Like I said, I was being very literal in my answer.
“Another way of saying what I was trying to say is its easier to find a shortstop who can provide Jeter’s production than a closer that can provide Mo’s production at closer.”
That is absolutely untrue. Since ’02, Mo’s been worth 19.4 WAR. That’s good, great for a reliever, but Jeter’s been worth 40.3 WAR since then, more than DOUBLE what Rivera’s been worth. As I said below, there’s no doubting Rivera’s greatness, but at the end of the day, he still pitches only 70-80 innings per year, which is MUCH easier to replace than a bat like Jeter’s (especially when said bat plays an up the middle position).
You apparently don’t realize it but I mostly agree with you. Jeter is absolutely the more valuable player and is more important to replace well. That wasn’t the question though.
Mo, with out question…during the coarse of games, their are many turning points, with different players ,being in key spots..its not jeter or anyone else each time with the game on the line.. when Mo is out there it is him , game win or lose.. sure 8 guys have to play defense.. but he must throw the ball so they can hit it.. look at the hits guys get off him..bloops , broken bat hits.. in the AL east…factor in how long he has done it..and is respected by everyone..i laugh just thinking about how guys look back after he Ks them on their way back to the bench ..he has 3x the pressure as the hitters coming to bat in game on the line situations..they can pick each other up.. Mo just has Mo and that one pitch that everyone knows is coming..
ponder this.. would you want to have jeter or any player you want coming up to tie or win the game. or Mo with the ball and a lead. how many 9th inn. wins do you get a year?? or how many saves does Mo get a year..me give me the lead and MO with the ball,….start playing .. New York ..New York
Wait, Jeter’s the best shortstop in the game? I don’t think you told Hanley Ramirez that. But yes, I’d say Jeter is harder to replace.
Didnt say Jeter was the best anywhere.
I’m confused.
“Both are of the best at their respective positions”
“Of the best” means one of the best.
My fault. I missed the “of.” I can’t read.
Jeter. Hands down. Without thinking twice.
/fragment’d
Mo,
I’m going to have to go against the consensus here and say Mo is harder to replace. You will not see a better clutch pitcher ever. Anytime Mo has blown a post-season save the Yanks don’t win the World Series, that’s how important he is because he is put in multiple inning big game high leverage spots and still has an insanely low era. I think a SS is easier to replace. Papelbon cannot tie Mo’s shoes (and he’s probably the 2nd or 3rd best reliever). You have conceded that there are better SS than Derek. That makes Mo harder to replace.
“You have conceded that there are better SS than Derek. That makes Mo harder to replace. ”
No it doesn’t. The best closer is still just a closer. Rivera is only going to pitch in 70-80 innings per season, which is much easier to replace than Jeter’s (or any position player’s) massive amount of plate appearances.
There are better pitchers than C.C. Sabathia; does that make him more replaceable than Rivera? Of course not.
If we took names off of this, there’d be no competition. You ALWAYS take the offensive minded shortstop over the great closer.
The fact that Mo is the best ever makes him “harder to replace”. Can the yanks win without him, sure, but will they ever find someone as good as him, I don’t think so. It comes down to your definition of “harder to replace”. I view harder to replace as meaning finding someone you can get the same level of production out of, you view the question as can we live with a replacement and if you had to replace one which would be be better off replacing.
I get the argument that a position player playing every day 9 innings and your closer only going 1 (or 1+) every 3rd day on average will automatically be more important but if I still think if I was a GM and had the task of replacing one or the other I would find it easier to replace Jeter because good shortstops exist but best closers ever are a once in a generation thing. But that’s just my humble opinion. If there weren’t people like me out there then there wouldn’t be much use for this post (everyone else seems to go Jeter hands down);)
Question, if Jeter gets to 4,000 hits and is still a average defensive shortstop, doesn’t he join the argument for best shortstop ever?
Great debate sparked off here, Moshe.
Whichever is harder to replace, I suspect that the Yankee organisation would find all the lost fans even MORE difficult to replace if they chose Pimplebum (sorry, that might be a spelling mistake) as successor to Mariano!
:-)
Tim
you spelled it right, Tim.. he will never and can never be a Yankee, he could play on the mets. or could follow damon grow beards and throw up in bars..hooting and hollering , that kids idea of what it means to be a pro is skewed as to what is being a yankee. more like provolactic . i know, where is that guy who corrects my spelling?
Yeah, he can rot in hell with that Clemens guy, they’d never be accepted by Yankee fans….wait a second
Assuming the goal is to win the World Series, I will join the minority and cast my vote for Mariano as the more valuable of the two. Looking at the margins by which the Yankees have made the playoffs throughout the past 14 years, I think THAT level of success would have been achieved without either Jeter or Mariano, assuming a high caliber replacement. However, the difference between Mariano and other all- star closers in the playoffs- Joe Nathan in 2009 and ,Trevor Hofffman in 1998 being the two obvious examples- has been stark and is in fact the reason why World Series flags are flying and not just American League pennants or AL East Division Championships.
Assuming their teams pick up all their options, Nathan won’t be a free agent until after 2012 and Soria not until after 2014. And, something to keep in mind, Nathan will also be 38 years old at that time. If those guys or Papelbon are the targets to replace Mo, much as I hate the thought, Papelbon may be the most “available” closer. So in some ways, if there’s only one targeted guy even available to replace him, Rivera might be the harder to replace.
Mo…shortens the game…is in the heads of opposing mgrs and players. Simply put, he generates fear, dread and resignation from the opposition which translates huge from a psychological standpoint.
Go ask Charlie Manuel….
He’s THE MAN…and enjoy him NOW while you can boyz because I truly think you’ll appreciate him more after he retires.
Jeter’s Great….but Mo’s THE MAN…boyz
Dante I agree totally.. I hope girardi never uses him in the 8th inn. again during the reg. season.. this should only be to keep the lead..lets not kill the horse that pulls the cart.. I think he gets 3 more years, and jeter 5 more.. then we can revisit this great debate.. Mo 600 plus saves jeter 4000 hits boy did we get spoiled…great to be a yankee fan… tex by the time its over should have 500 plus HRs..maybe another HOFer.. Mo is the man.