From George King:
The Yankees and Nick Johnson are moving toward a one-year deal for the left-handed hitter to be the club’s DH, and it could be announced Friday morning.
Asked today by The Post if there was deal to be announced, Brian Cashman said, “Not at this moment.’’
Johnson has drawn interest from the Mariners and Giants to play first base, a position that isn’t available to him as a Yankee because Mark Teixeira is entrenched there…..
Considering Johnson’s extensive injury history — he missed all of the 2000 and 2007 seasons and appeared in 73 games in 2004 and was out for 63 games in 2003 — the contract is expected to include incentive clauses.
Johnson made $5.5 million a year ago and fits into the Yankees’ budget.
If Johnny Damon doesn’t return, Johnson could hit second between Derek Jeter and Teixeira, although his lack of speed is a detriment in that spot of the order. His power numbers should spike playing 81 games in Yankee Stadium.
There are real reasons to love Johnson as a Yankee. I’ll do a more detailed statistical analysis and projection if the Yankees do in fact sign Nick the Stick, but the important number to know is .402, his career OBP. Furthermore, Johnson has a reverse platoon split much like Hideki Matsui, and his lefty swing is a nice fit for the new ballpark in the Bronx. He would slot perfectly in to the now vacated number 2 slot in the lineup.
That being said, I am puzzled by this move. The Giants are apparently interested in NJ as well, as Ken Rosenthal reports:
Johnson, as reported by the New York Post, is discussing a one-year contract with the Yankees. The Giants, too, are offering one year, but have raised their offer to the $5.5 million to $6 million range, the source said.
I have made no secret of my preference for the Yankees to have Johnny Damon at DH this season. However, if Damon was not an option due to salary concerns, Hideki Matsui should have been the next option. Johnson is no cheaper, is not an appreciably better hitter, and is not a better bet to remain healthy. If the Yankees were going to bring in a DH at 6 million, it should have been Matsui. Signing Johnson while Damon remains on the market will suggest to me that Brian Cashman miscalculated the market on Damon when he let Matsui leave.
UPDATE: Ken Davidoff is reporting that the deal is done, pending a physical, for 1 year and 5.5 million.
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87 Responses to Yankees Nearing Deal With Nick Johnson (Updated)
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If The Yankees end up giving 6+ million to Nick Johnson to DH for us I will be way more disappointed than signing Damon to DH and I was and still am completely against Damon from the beginning.
Mo is 100% right here Matsui was the clear choice and for the same price you are downgrading to an even bigger injury risk with less power than Matsui just to have someone hit 2nd in the lineup when you have Robinson Cano the whole time!
Before Nick Johnson was an option I thought for sure the Yankees would take a look at Carlos Delgado he looked good last year before the hip surgery and was even posting a .390 OBP and in 2008 his last full year he hit 38 HRs, taking his left handed swing to Yankee stadium would have only given him an increase in power and the Yankees have already dealt with the rehab to his injury with Alex this year so they would be more understanding on how to handle it than almost anyone.
Jeter, SS
Cano, 2B
Tex, 1B
Arod, 3B
Delgado, DH
Posada, C
Granderson, CF
Swisher, RF
Melky, LF
….is better than
Jeter, SS
Johnson, DH
Tex, 1B
Arod, 3B
Posada, C
Cano, 2B
Granderson, CF
Swisher, RF
Melky, LF
I don’t even think that lineup is near as good as last years was with Matsui and Damon although the outfield defense has improved some with the subtraction of Damon and addition of Granderson.
This move really doesn’t make sense to me and it doesn’t seem to be an upgrade over Damon and Damon wasn’t an upgrade over Matsui so I am really confused.
We don’t even know if Johnson can DH, he has been in the NL for 5 years and has really no DH experience so what if he signs and ends up being like Jason Giambi where he just isn’t as focused or as good when he isn’t playing the field because his ABs get in his head? We just live with it? Are we forced to let him play more first base? Do we send him to the bench? None of these seem like good ideas to me!
What happens if he gets injured? The guy has a long history of injuries and a lot of these injuries didn’t come while playing the field but actually came while swinging and missing the ball and swinging and hitting the ball and he has been treated for everything from wrist surgery, broken hands, back problems, broken cheek, hamstring problems and more. So what happens if he takes a manly swing and hits the 15 day DL for a while? Who DH’s? Swisher? If Swisher DH’s does that mean Melky plays RF and Gardner plays LF? That is a great defense but I don’t think we can survive with that kind of production from the OF, do we start Miranda at DH? I’m not crazy about that either!
This is a bad signing! First bad move by Cashman in a while!
Johnson < Damon < Matsui
I’ll disagree with that. Johnson is one of the best players in all of baseball in reaching base- most of the advanced stats had him about equal to Matsui offensively last year. If Granderson bounces back at all I’d say the offense is about equal and the defense is improved. I still likely would have chosen Matsui, if only for familiarity’s sake.
The likelihood that Johnson doesn’t see DL time is almost 0%…. Johnson has reached 600 ABs once in his career (Johnny had 550 last year) and he has cracked 500 ABs in his career just 3 times, sure he has a .400 OBP but he also only hit 8 HRs and 24 doubles last year.
Nick Johnson is injury prone, slow and fat none of these are desirable qualities in a player you expect to hit right at the top of the order, he was slowed last year by wrist surgery, back strains and hamstring problems which show just how badly he gets injured every single year… Between playing in a bigger park for the Marlins and a more hitter friendly park for the Nationals his HRs and doubles should have been up at least one or the other.
Matsui also provided protection for Alex now that job falls to Posada so what happens when Posada gets injured (as recent history would show he will) or he isn’t in the lineup? Granderson, Cano, or Swisher hits 5th? I really am not comfortable with any of the 3 hitting 5th behind Alex.
Nick is a huge unknown and just because he was drafted by the Yankees in 97 is not enough of a reason to bring him back for a similar or bigger deal than Matsui, I also imagine him hitting 2nd will clog the base paths some as he isn’t a very quick guy at all (2 SB, 4 CS in 2008) and despite his injury concerns he doesn’t seem to want to trim down and see if that might help at all considering he has been fat for a long time now.
I just hope his .400 OBP comes in handy while he on the DL and we have Swisher or Miranda DH’sing and if Posada goes down at the same time you will have either Cano or Granderson hitting 2nd and the other will probably end up hitting 5th.
Listen, I agree with you between Matsui and Johnson, although I think you have to factor in that Matsui is an injury risk as well. I’m just saying that the issue with Johnson is not the quality of his play, which is excellent.
Johnson has had 1,000 different injuries and a lot of them have come while swinging the bat, Matsui’s injury concerns are focused on 2 injuries 1 to each knee and he has shown improvement since the last surgery to the point that I don’t worry about his knees as much as I worry about all of Johnson. He has back injuries every year, the guy is a walking 15 day DL!
I never said his quality of play is bad but he is a huge unknown on every level… In a full season he could anywhere from 8-23 HRs but he most likely will not play a full season so how then can you offer him as much as Matsui who has more power and can provide real protection to Alex?
The defense is another reason not to sign Johnson to me, if someone like the Mariners or Giants give Nick 6 million they are also getting a stellar first baseman defensively but on the Yankees he loses that added value because Tex is a better defender than Johnson so he won’t find himself plying 1B hardly at all so therefor we are paying 6 million just for his bat while the Giants would be playing 6 million for his bat and glove daily.
I think going with a more power bat approach is the better solution at DH, if you want someone to hit 2nd then Cano would make the perfect option and even though he is better lower in the order Granderson can hit 2nd as well I just don’t think signing Johnson is a good move based on his injury history and lack of seasons without even 1 injury let alone multiple injuries.
If I was going to take a flier on someone with an injury not named Matsui it would be for someone who would probably take less than Matsui like Carlos Delgado, at 37 I don’t think he is anywhere near done he is more productive than Thome and Jim has been an everyday DH until he was traded last year. I think you would get more value out of a .350 OBP and 35+ HRs than you would a .400 OBP and 10-18 HRs.
Even when Johnson was a Yankee at the beginning of his career he was injury prone and never even had 400 ABs in pinstripes in a single season how can we expect him to do it now when he is 31?
DH’ing everyday should keep him healthier. It worked for Matsui.
Matsui also didn’t injure himself while swinging a bat… The guy has had chronic back problems, he has had a back injury every year for like 3 years including last year and they were from swinging the bat, if he takes swings that injure him isn’t he always 1 swing away from the DL?
And Matsui has chronic knee problems. Also, some of Johnson’s major injuries were flukes- his own guy running into him, etc.
I agree that I am miffed as to why they didn’t sign Matsui – considering that he is a proven DH, brings in the extra Japanese revenue streams, etc. I just think that was a mistake to let him leave. At the same time, I could understand why they wanted to sign Damon. I just wanted both.
If Damon is not going to sign, then it is easy to see that Johnson becomes more of a priority because if we missed out on him we would be pretty screwed with the FA options left. This move at least makes me sleep easy. I’m sure this week has been rough for Cashman, as Damon & Boras are not making it easy.
Dreaming though I still hope they can add Johnny for left and sign Sheets or Deuscherer for a rate that lands them where they want to be.
Why would you want to have the same defense as last year just an upgrade in CF? Damon offers nothing in LF and is only going to get worse in the field while his bat decreases…. I really doubt Damon even hits 20 HRs next year!
Johnson should have been below Matsui, Damon and Delgado on the who can play DH” list of free agents.
Matsui > Delgado> Damon > Johnson
Why?
Jeter
Johnson
Tex
A-Rod
Damon
Posada
Granderson
Cano
Swisher
… that’s why. Plus toward the end of the year and the playoffs I did think Johnny was covering some decent ground. We know his arm is crap but he would be a big upgrade on the whole over Melky. Save Melk for the late innnings.
ROFL! At That lineup!!!! Damon protecting Arod? ROFL HAHAHAHAHAHA…. I think my sides are hurting from laughing so much!!!
Damon would never protect Arod… Damon loses all value hitting lower than 2nd in the lineup and since I expect him to have a pretty big HR drop next year and the following year it would be pretty stupid to put him in the 5 hole!
Posada isn’t the best choice to hit 5th but he is a hell of a lot better than Damon!
He wouldn’t be an upgrade over Melky defensively and I think that Damon will see a huge drop in his numbers and I really don’t think he will hit more than 18 HRs next year and if that is the case his D is too terrible to make up for those numbers.
Damon wasn’t covering good ground in the playoffs he was having to dive and make risky plays to catch up to balls that regular LFer like Melky Cabrera would have gotten too standing up!
Damon had very similar numbers to Matsui last year. I’m not sure what you are laughing about. Just because you happen to think Damon will decline does not mean he will. If he doesnt, he would be perfectly acceptable in that slot, because as I said, he was very similar offensively this year to Matsui.
He hit 17 HRs at home and only 7 on the road… trying to compare Matsui’s numbers to Damon’s are not even close!
Matsui has real power he hit 13 at home this year and 15 on the road… Damon is a completely Yankee stadium made product… I don’t expect his numbers to go down because he will all of a suddenly age I expect him to go to another team and realize that all his power was created by the stadium! No one would respect Damon hitting 5th! Alex would get walked every time so they could pitch to the old man.
I realize that you wanted Damon over Matsui Moe but you are wrong on this one!
.274/.367/.509/.876
.282/.365/.489/.854
He had lower numbers across the board and that is with Yankee stadium giving him probably 7 or 8 HRs this year… On another team he would be luck to belt 14 HRs in a season and how good of a 5th hole hitter is he then?
You keep comparing numbers Mo but you see to keep those to yourself… I actually prove my points with numbers… Maybe Damon had more doubles than Matsui because of Matsui’s knees but that’s all he did better and when you look at the road/home splits you can really see just how much Yankee stadium helped Damon. If I was going to make a lineup with bot there is only way t do it.
Jeter, SS
Johnson, DH
Damon, LF
Tex, 1B
Arod, 3B
Posada, C
Cano, 2B
Swisher, RF
Granderson, CF
They will be playing in Yankee Stadium next season too. fact of the matter is that Damon and Matsui had very similar offensive numbers last year. You can apply all the splits that you want, but when we are looking at a broad question like every day 5 hitter, those splits should not make a big difference.
If you think Melky is better than Damon then I know why you’re laughing… you’re high bro.
We differ on how you think Damon is going to fall off but I could guess Posada has just as good of a chance. For me they are pretty close at this point in their career. Damon doesn’t strike out that much, he has speed. Perhaps Jorge can drive in more runs though, so yeah, he may be better to back up ARod.
Regardless of that point the point I was making is adding him to the lineup over Melky would be a big boost.
I never said Melky had the better bat but he does have much better defense and because of that he is the better choice to play LF… I don’t think Damon’s numbers will be near as good as they were this year but I think his defense will be even worse and when you combine the two it makes a clear case against Damon playing in LF next year. We lose way too many runs on Damon’s defense!
Damon’s speed is really diminishing and I really don’t think Posada is that much better behind Alex he is better than Damon but as I have said before not by that much I would much rather see MAtsui behind Alex but that ship has sailed!
Adding him to the lineup is a boost but not defensively… On defense Damon is an eye sore with a -12 UZR so he already has to score 12 more runs than the average defensive LFer just to make up for his terrible D.
I’m not really sold on Delgato… getting old and strikes out way too much. I can see him dropping off a cliff.
It’s Delgado…
He had a .390 OBP before getting injured last year and had actually increased his doubles rate from the year before… and speaking of 2008 he 38 HRs while maintaining a .350+ OBP not to mention he is only 37… He is more than fine for one more year and would have given you over 30 HRs in Yankee stadium without breaking a sweat.
Delgado… got it. He still strikes out like a mother… think about all the times A-Rod would be in scoring position and he strikes out. Come to think of it last year Jorge struck out a lot as well.
I am still sobing after letting Matsui go to the Angels for what we probably are gettting Johnson for and probably will get less production. waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa ;(
I can’t understand letting Matsui go if you were going to pay Johnson 6 million to DH anyway… You would have got more production from Matsui and the guy has come up clutch for the Yankees many times in big spots.
If we were getting Johnson for 4 million this would be a different story slightly.
Nick is less likely to get injured if he is not in the field as much. He can spell Tex when he is DH, which Matsui could not do. His bat is perfect for Yankee Stadium. Love the move.
How is he less likley to get injured being a DH when most of his injuries come while swinging the bat?
Wrist injury? batting, broken hand? Batting, broken cheek? Batting, hurt back almost every year? batting
All these injuries occurred while he was batting and his hamstring injury last year came from running the bases, the guy is a walking 15 day DL and is one bad swing away from another trip right back to the DL.
Didn’t he break his leg when he was run into at first base or something to that degree that cost him over a year of playing time?
At the end of 2006 and it cost him all of 2007… Bad things happen to Nationals players haha.
The guy is an injury waiting to happen!
He also had a wrist injury in 2008 that cost him most of that season (and apparently all his power in 2009), he has had a back injury from swinging and missing a ball every season you can look up going backwards into 2005 which really doesn’t bode well for it not happening again, back problems often reoccur and swinging a bat is one of the worst things for it. IF he goes down with another back injury he could be out for a month or more.
In 2005 he had a heel injury which sent him to the DL and he has been sent to the DL for a broken cheek from a foul ball, broken hand from a ball hitting him in the hand, and in fact he has a DL trip in every year of his career but one and has had several injuries in most of his professional seasons.
It’s not like we are talking about a guy who plays so hard on defense he gets injured by running into walls and what not this guy gets injured in the batters box taking swings how is DH’ing going to prevent this guy from bad swings that hurt himself when it’s been happening for years?
As someone who has been anti Damon from the start I would much rather have Damon for 1 year 9 million than Johnson for 1 year 6+ million.
I am much more comfortable with Matsui’s knees than Johnsons, back, wrists, hamstrings, hands, fingers, feet back and everything else he has injured, sometimes a guy just is never going to stay healthy it happens but there are a lot more concerns with Johnson than Matsui. At least he didn’t hit 8 HRs all year.
So every Johnson injury ever was a fluke? Because the guy has been injured every year of big league career that’s a lot of flukes, if I had that many flukes I would just call it bad luck or what should be expected.
The guy has repeating injuries from swinging and is prone to flukes, that type of layer doesn’t need to find an injury injuries find him, he’s the type of guy who would break a bone in his foot popping his toe knuckles I see no way he stays healthy all year, it has only happened once and even then he fought through injury.
What a terrible deal!!!
The all but official 2010 Yankees lineup…
Jeter, SS
Johnson, DH
Tex, 1B
Arod, 3B
Posada, C
Cano, 2B
Swisher, RF
Granderson, CF
Melky, LF
… and the all but offical 2010 Yankees lineup a few weeks into the season when Nick Johnson takes his first stint on the DL…
Jeter, SS
Cano, 2B
Tex, 1B
Arod, 3B
Posada, C
Swisher, DH
Granderson, CF
Melky, RF
Gardner, LF
Exactly.
I expect Nick to stay healthy as mostly a DH.
If you look at his 162 game average, it’s pretty much as good as Damons.He gets on base more and hits for more power.Unfortunately he doesn’t see 162 games but as a DH he just might!
Remember how most Press and Internet posters said AJ Burnett would get injured, “He always does.”
They always get injured until they don’t anymore.That happens also, guys learn.
All that being said, Cashman bungled another here.
Obviously Matsui was the better choice and signing him immediately might have made Damon more reasonable, thinking Yankees could in reality do without him.
Additionally, sometimes guys like Matsui do get healthier 2nd year removed from knee surgery.
Actually they almost always do.
Judging his knees health on last year is a fool’s errand.He managed to hit close to 30 HR’s ANYWAY with a very slow start.If he took advantage of the new Stadiums wind tunnels, in April & May, Matsui might have hit 35 or more last season.I don’t think I ever saw him swinging better than in the latter half of the year and playoffs.
Born to be a DH and might be able to play some OF too, maybe.
CASH BLEW IT.
Maybe Nick will bail him out.
He hit 8 HRs last year in 457 ABs the wrist surgery clearly took away his power and he may regain some of it but I doubt he actually regains his possible 20 HRs power ever again, he only reached 20 once in his career anyway and his injuries have derailed his talent since then.
I really don’t see this as a good move and I don’t expect him to stay healthy… How is being a DH going to stop him from wrenching his back like he has done every year of his career since 2004? Every single year since 2004 he has missed time with a back injury from swinging the bat.
Cashman should have either stuck with Matsui or signed Delgado to DH, I think we are going to all regret this signing when Johnson ends up on the DL next year and we have Cano or Granderson hitting 2nd in the order anyway except we will have no one offering real protection to Rodriguez and Gardner will be in LF because Swisher is DH’ing or Juan Miranda will be out DH hitting 9th, either way I’m not thrilled.
Whether or not you love Matsui, he simply is no longer an option. I have to assume Cashman decided that he preferred Damon or Johnson to Hideki, and finally decided to pull the trigger on Johnson before he found himself with no good choice besides Damon and thus facing Boras’s excessive contract demands. This indicates, too, that he regarded Delgado as a too uncertain after his injury, Thome as finished, and Cust as a black hole in the line-up.
Nick Johnson does fit the profile of the kind of hitter that Cashman likes — especially the high OBP and the reverse splits. He is significantly younger than Matsui or Damon, though his obvious brittleness offsets that.
The short contract suggests that Cashman has his eyes on other players who may be available after next season. He commented today that he expects next year’s free agent pool to be much stronger. Of course, players who might be FAs then could also sign long-term deals with their current teams before that, and some surely will. I guess he assumes the current organizational budget constraints — which I still don’t get — will not tie his hands next year the way he claims they do this year.
The Yankee line-up is good, if not quite as imposing as the 2009 one. The defense is better. If the pitching holds constant, we’ll likely see a run differential very similar to 2009.
Final thought: there is nothing flawed in the projected line-up that signing Matt Holliday would not fix.
I would have to think Delgado at 37 can still offer more than Johnson at 31 and we just successfully dealt with the same kind of injury in Alex Rodriguez that Delgado had so we should be perfectly prepared to help him rehab it and get on the field at full strength.
The only DH that is available next year that I want is Adam Dunn and there is no way he signs an extension with the Nationals because that team has no chance to win anytime soon!
Delgado I think would have served as a better stop gap between Matsui and Dunn but I guess it doesn’t matter now does it.
Jeter, SS
Cano, 2B
Tex, 1B
Arod, 3B
Delgado, DH
Posada, C
Granderson, CF
Swisher, RF
Melky
Is much better to me than…
Jeter, SS
Johnson, DH
Tex, 1B
Arod, 3B
Posada, C
Cano, 2B
Swisher, RF
Granderson, CF
Melky, LF
I’m very fond of Godzilla but it seems apparent the Yanks told him they were not likely to ask him back. He didn’t wait and accepted a one year deal. I understand how some people wanted him back but Cash said right from the beginning that he wanted a DH that could play the field. Matsui wasn’t that guy at any price. I was on board and even though I’ll miss him, I have no regrets.
I like Damon too but I don’t want back. He’s done very well the last 2 years but to me, he did it while looking on the brink of a serious decline. I’d rather he did it somewhere else and if he doesn’t, so be it. Signing Johnson doesn’t eliminate Johnny but I hope it does.
All these older, Matsui-type DH’s have injury concerns. You can’t just point a finger at Johnson. Nick is much younger than all of them and he’s been playing the field every game. Maybe DH-ing will improve his health.
Nick Johnson has a good stick and fits the professional hitter cliché. His power stats might improve in Yankee Stadium.
I’d prefer Miranda and will always prefer internal options as long as the guy has the tools and has earned it. I think Juan has the tools and has earned a look. He might still.
Nothing is official so it could all be moot.
How is it not official when it’s pending a physical? If he couldn’t pass the physical he wouldn’t be talking to teams about a signing.
I really don’t see him hitting 20 HRs and Johnson injury concerns are worse than everyone else’s because he has injury concerns all over his body not just in 1 or 2 areas that can be rehabbed, you are talking about going from a chronic knee injury with Matsui that he has been dealing with since 2007 to a chronic back injury that Johnson has been dealing with since 2004… This guy is one swing away from a long long DL trip!
Maybe Johnson will fail his physical and this questionable move never happens.
Wishful thinking…
Forget Damon, Matsui was the move to make. This looks like Cashman making a rare misread of the market, and it seems he’s acting a little too quickly here. If he was really looking budget (under 6M),he probably could have waited the market out longer and waited for a deal to fall in his lap as there are way too many DH types for spots available this offseason. He could have really spent nothing on a DH and used that remaining budget money on a surer bet on a starter.
He could have gotten Delgado on a contract less than Matsui’s and he has more power potential than any of these guys and last year before the injury he has a .390 OBP and a .350+ OBP in 2008 when he also jacked 38 HRs.
WOW this is a Huge disappointment for me, NICK JOHNSON?? Really? I don’t reticule Cash very often but, WHAT WAS HE THINKING? I don’t care if Matsui is in a wheel chair and has no tongue, the guy was the WS MVP last year and can hit for, well you know what rhymes with hit, C’mon now Cash!
Him being the WS MVP doesn’t make him any better or worse than Johnson but I do think that Matsui holds more value to the team at large because the numbers he put up were hitting behind Alex protecting the best hitter we have on the team and that is something Nick Johnson can’t do and I don’t really trust Posada with that job either.
If Posada gets hurt and we end up with Swisher, Cano or Granderson hitting 5th behind Alex I think we will stat to see the offensive production slow quite a bit because if I had a pitcher facing Alex and Granderson, Swsher or Cano were behind him I would walk Alex to get to them.
Cano showed last year he wasn’t a good bat for protecting Alex and Granderson and Swisher strikeout so much that they will be pitched to a lot more than Alex would be.
The more I think about it, the more I’m okay with this. Johnson is every bit the hitter Matsui is, so the question here is really health. If they believe Johnson is the better health bet, that’s their judgment and that’s fine. It’s certainly not a “bad” move. Is it the one I would have made? No, but it isnt bad or stupid.
Say “Johnson is every bit the hitter Matsui is” which I disagree with to some degree because of Matsui’s power and the abiltity that gives him to change games doesn’t that mean you should look at where they hit to derive value?
Johnson hits 2nd in the lineup so if he is every bit as good a hitter as Matsui and Matsui is hitting 5th the much more important spot in the lineup and spot that protects the best hitter in the lineup doesn’t that mean that Matsui is more valuable to the team than Johnson? To me it does!
Statistically, #2 hitter is significantly more important than the #5 hitter. You want your best non 3/4 hitter to be on base in front of your best guys, it leads to more runs.
We have several candidates to hit 2nd in the lineup and do as good a job or better job than Johnson would do and they would also stay healthier.. Almost any number 2 hitter can be found it’s not really that hard a thing to find, now finding someone to protect Alex in the 5th hole is a lot harder to do. Both Swisher and Cano failed at being good enough to protect Alex last year and when Cano was behind him he went into a big slump and Cano went into a slump as well from the pressure of people walking Alex to get to him. Right now we have Posada hitting 5th and due to the fact he is 37 year old catcher I doubt he even plays 120 games this year which means there will be 40+ games with no legitimate 5th hitter in the order which means at least 40+ games in which the other team can effectively neutralize Rodriguez without having anyone make them pay the price behind him in the order.
All things considered I think this Yankee team needs a 5th hitter more than they need a number 2 hitter…
I would take .320/.352/.520/.871 in 637 ABs with 204 H, 48 2B, 25 HRs, 30 BBs, 63 Ks hitting 2nd and Carlos Delgado/Matsui hitting 5th over Nick Johnson hitting 2nd.
So you think Johnson hitting 2nd and Posada 5th is a better combination than Cano hitting 2nd, Matsui/Delgado hitting 5th and Posada hitting 6th?
The lineup is a lot deeper with Matsui/Delgado than it is with Johnson.
Jeter, SS
Cano, 2B
Tex, 1B
Arod, 3B
Matsui/Delgado, DH
Posada, C
Granderson, CF
Swisher, RF
Melky, LF
That lineup is just thicker top to bottom than the one we are sporting going into the season now.
Jeter, SS
Johnson, DH
Tex, 1B
Arod, 3B
Posada, C
Cano, 2B
Swisher, RF
Granderson, CF
Melky, LF
You are putting a lot of stock into where people hit, when its been shown that it really does not matter much. The difference betwen the two lineups is Nick Johnson vs. Matsui/Delgado. Depending on how you feel about those players tells you which lineup is better.
Johnson IS every bit the hitter Matsui is, and more. He’s an OBP machine. That being said, the Yanks do lose quite a bit in the power department here as Granderson’s pop replaces Damon’s but Johnson’s doesn’t approach Matsui’s. I’m not saying power is the only thing a team should consider but it is certainly relevant enough to point out.
As to the health question, both Matsui and Johnson are major injury risks. 2009 was Matsui’s first year of full health since 2005 and I’m sure being the full-time DH had at least something to do with that. Perhaps Johnson being the full-time DH will similarly aide him in maintaining his health but that remains to be seen. As a result, I’d have avoided Johnson altogether, given that we’re replacing an injury risk with another one (and one with a far worse injury track record, I might add).
The more I think about it, while this move is certainly justifiable on paper — an OBP machine is never a bad thing — we have enough previous evidence to know that the odds on Nick Johnson playing a full season aren’t terribly favorable, thus this is a move I wouldn’t have made.
For an extra year and roughly the same money, the Yanks could’ve signed Mike Cameron, stuck him in LF *AND STILL* added Nick Johnson as a high upside play. I’m really feeling like Cashman got caught with his pants down on the Cameron signing because Cammy would’ve given the Yanks a decent hedge against relying too heavily on Johnson.
I’m pretty “meh” on Cashman’s winter so far. Theo’s outclassed him thus far by a wide margin.
I’m going to disagree with that. I understand you wanted Cameron but I doubt Cash wanted to give him 2 years. Outside of the Cameron move, I dont really see anything that Theo’s done that makes it a great offseason for him. Meanwhile, the Yankees traded for Curtis Granderson. I can understand liking the moves Theo has made better (although I dont, because Im not a huge fan of the Lackey deal), but I think “outclassed” is a bit strong.
I had estimated Cameron at 2Y/$20M and he ended up coming in at $15.5M. That’s a steal and I don’t see why the second year would scare people off. If Cashman is willing to give Damon 2Y/$20M, Cameron would be just as safe a bet. He has no injury history and has been incredibly consistent for years now. But Cameron is neither here nor there…
I like the moves Theo has made better so in my opinion, he’s outclassed Cashman. I think the term outclassed reflects my discomfort with picking the trade over the free agent and then watching Lackey go to Boston while the Yanks will counter with a reclamation project or two AND adding a fragile DH to the mix. For a guy that always talks about “younger and more athletic” the Yanks will be getting more fragile…
Not really worth debating here since it’s your opinion against mine and there’s nothing you can say to convince me otherwise and vice versa.
I think the Lackey thing reflects the idea that Cash spent his bullets last offseason, as he said at the time. They said they werent going to spend big or long term this offseason, and they’ve held to that.
I guess in that sense it’s a good thing we got at least one World Series out of it. Not saying we can’t win another but I’m definitely not happy if we’ve blown our flexibility while Boston retools this year and still has room for Mauer/Pujols next year…
Actually, what happened was, Cashman told Matsui to wait and after he dealt with Damon first he’d come back to Matsui.
Matsui and his agent understanding Boar-ass would draw this out forever, was afraid the landing areas for him would fill up with other DH’s and he’d have nowhere to go so he went where they wanted him.
Which is the worst reason to lose someone ever!
So your position is that it doesn’t matter who protects the best hitter in your lineup? It doesn’t matter if Cody Ransom is behind Alex or if Matsui is behind Alex as long as he is in the lineup it doesn’t matter? Can’t say I agree at all!
I bet Alex hitting behind Tex last year didn’t matter all then according to you right? Tex was going to hit 39 HRs witha .383 OBP no matter if Alex missed all season or 1 day? It didn’t matter all that the best hitter in the lineup was hitting ahead of him? Once again I disagree completely!
AKA any lineup with Delgado or Matsui at DH is a much better lineup than any lineup with Nick Johnson at DH.
I really don’t think you are putting enough stock into where people hit… If it really doesn’t matter then lets hit Tex and Arod leadoff and put Jeter at the 9 spot, sound cool? No?
It’s simple if you can have Matsui/Delgado hitting 5th and Posada 6th it’s better than Posada hitting 5th.
No, I’m saying that the difference between having Matsui bat 5th and Posada or Cano batting 5th is not huge. Also, you seem to be saying Cano 5th is just as good as Johnson 5th, when that isnt the case. Johnson’s OBP is 40 points higher, and OBP is the most important attribute for a 2 hitter. But as I said, even that doesnt make a huge difference.
I would say the difference in having Cano and Matsui hit 5th is HUGE… While hitting 5th last year Cano put up pretty bad numbers especially for Cano he hit .299/.318/.477/.795 in 214 ABs with 64 H, 12 2B, 8 HRs and 6 BBs with 18 Ks. Compare that to Matsui’s line hitting 5th .266/.360/.489/.849 are you going to say that is the same team with Cano hitting 5th and with Matsui hitting 5th? Because once again I highly disagree.
In case you were wondering these are Posada’s numbers hitting 5th last year .177/.260/.354/.614 in 113 ABs with only 20 H, 5 2B, 5 HRs, 11 BBs, 33 Ks… Are you saying that those numbers aren’t quite a bit different than Posada full numbers for the year? Hitting 5th is a huge burden for someone who isn’t use to it and a lot of pressure falls on the person in that spot because they have to be the brick wall that doesn’t fall down behind Alex because if they break Alex won’t get good pitches to hit and if Alex’s numbers fall the team falls.
In the 4 ABs he had hitting 2nd in the lineup he got 3 hits and 2 of the 3 were extra bases…
Cano and Johnson are both awful ideas to hit 5th!! Johnson has no power to hit there and Cano has proven to shat himself when placed behind Alex as the numbers at the top prove.
He has 40 points highers on OBP but Cano also logs more hits than Johnson, strikeouts a ton less than Johnson and provides a lot more power than Johnson all of which would more than make up for those 40 points… As I said I also don’t believe that Johnson will remain healthy and Cano has yet to receive a big injury in the majors.
How can anyone deny the metal side of the game when peoples numbers vary so greatly depending on where they are comfortable.
Cano hitting 5th in the lineup .299/.318/.477/.795 in 214 ABs with 64 H, 12 2B, 8 HRs and 6 BBs with 18 Ks.
Posada hitting 5th in the lineup .177/.260/.354/.614 in 113 ABs with only 20 H, 5 2B, 5 HRs, 11 BBs, 33 Ks
Matsui hitting 5th in the lineup .266/.360/.489/.849
Cano’s numbers on the year .320/.352/.520/.871
Posada’s numbers on the year .285/.363/.522/.885
Yet neither one of these guys had a successful season while hitting 5th in the lineup and Cano did a much better job of it than Posada did and you are going to say it doesn’t matter who hits where? I can’t believe that when the numbers bear out differently.
Matsui’s numbers on the year.274/.367/.509/.876
Matsui actually has very similar numbers from hitting 5th and his overall numbers mostly because when he was hitting (when not pinch hitting) he was hitting 5th in the lineup and his numbers show a lot more comfortableness with hitting in the 5th hole in the lineup over the other 2 and yet the other 2 are the ones who will have no choice but to hit 5th this year.
I’m not denying the mental side of the game, I’m saying that it doesnt make a huge difference, and that if you must put a lot of stock in lineup ordering, you are severely understating the difference between having Johnson 2nd and having Cano 2nd.
OK so know that I showed you that there is a huge difference in Posada and Cano batting 5th over Matsui batting 5th you want to argue that there isn’t a big difference Cano or Johnson hitting 2nd?
Even if Cano is slightly worse than Johnson hitting 2nd Matsui/Delgado are so much better hitting 5th than Posada it makes up for it or didn’t you that Posada had a .260 OBP hitting 5th?
Posada’s OBP for the year is .363 but Posada’s OBP hitting 5th is .260 that is a huge difference, you can’t deny that the difference between those numbers show that Posada is a better hitter when not in the 5th spot in the lineup and the same can be said of Cano. So doesn’t make sense that the lineup is stronger when Posada can hit somewhere he is more comfortable?
You are talking about tiny samples. The idea that Posada can’t handle batting 5th is just preposterous.
I like it. An OBA machine in a line-up with big bats like Tex and Arod is a very good thing. I think the RF porch might alter his numbers quite a bit as well. He should be able top stay healthier as a DH and filling in for Tex once every other week.
I really don’t see how a man who injuries come while batting will be fixed by DH’ing… Just because someone is a DH why do people think that makes you impervious to injury? The guy has reoccurring chronic back problems these aren’t just going away, he is at all times one swing away from the DL for a month or more being a DH doesn’t effect this.
Also why is everyone so quick to think his numbers are going to jump because of the stadium? HE was only hiting 15 HRs while he was here the first time because of injury… It’s nice to have a guy on the team who can get on base a lot but if he is on the DL what good is that going to do? I say he has at least 2 trips to the DL this year and at least one for his back.
I also don’t see him hitting more than 15 or so HRs this year either even if he stays healthy I don’t think he has 20 HR power anymore because of the wrist surgery and all the back problems and lower leg problems.
Nice!! Now all that is left is to get Ben Sheets and go hard next season for Cliff Lee, Joe Mauer and Carl Crawford.
no thank you to Cliff Lee and Carl Crawford and Joe Mauer will never reach free agency!
Cliff Lee is asking for Sabathia money for next year but one thing he forget to remember is that he will 32 next year when he is on the open market and CC was 29 when he got his deal.
Carl Crawford is completely dependent on his speed and at the end of his contract will be worse than Damon because he will have no arm as well only he won’t be able to hit for near the amount of power numbers that Damon did last year. Crawford is a guy who’s value will fall as his legs start to go and since he will be 29 next year he doesn’t have long until you start to notice a decline in his speed and unlike Damon I don’t see Crawford coming out of no where with power. His defensive skills also depend on his legs and once those go down you will start to see his defensive numbers sink as well.
Mauer is a pipe dream in the end he will take less if that’s what it takes for him to stay with the Twins, he was born there and is the face of the franchise and town like he could never be in New York.
You never know. Plus I don’t think Carl Crawford is going to ask for the amount that Holliday is asking. So in a sense you get speed and defense with a pretty good bat for less than what Holliday is asking for.
Joe Mauer isn’t a pipe dream. It’s still a chance, if the Twins were serious, they would have done a deal by now. Why wait on your franchise player?
As for Cliff Lee, yes he probably would ask for CC money, but the years could be the same as what Roy Halladay got from the Phillies. All I’m saying is that why pay 18+ million to Holliday? When you can wait till next year on players that are worth that amount (Lee and Mauer).
From what I heard Crawford wants 16+ million per year as well and that is the main reason the Rays don’t think they can keep him and if I’m not mistaken that is exactly how much Holliday is going to receive from the Cards. Crawford is the best position player on the market next year as Holliday was this year only by next offseason hopefully the economy will be a little better in which case you can guarantee Crawford for 16+.
They are going to get a deal done soon they haven’t even entered into serious negotiations yet and Mauer says he would like to get a deal done before the season starts and there is plenty of time until then and I assume he will get it done before ST. Mauer is a pipe dream!
The reason the Phillies traded Lee for Halladay is because Halladay was willing to take less than market value to get out Toronto the same can’t be said for Lee… He is a better and more proven player than either AJ Burnett or John Lackey and unlike either of those 2 he has started and won 2 world series games for his team in rather dominating fashion. Lee will get at least 17 million a year for his contract because AJ got 16.5 and Lackey got slightly more than that.
I don’t think any of the 3 will be Yankees anytime soon and to tell you the truth I would rather go after Adam Dunn to DH rather than those 2 because of the money they will be asking and the fact that Crawford isn’t worth a 6 year deal.
I didn’t say he couldn’t handle the spot in the lineup but I will say that I don’t expect him to have nearly as good a season as he would have had batting primarily 6th with a better hitter ahead of him taking pressure off of him and Alex.
I will also that I think Matsui and Delgado would have better years batting 5th in the lineup than Posada will so when you consider this it was a bad move to sign Johnson. You may put him 2nd in the lineup but you take Posada out of his comfort zone and if he is having lesser numbers because of the fact he is the focal point of the other teams when trying to get around Arod then you can blame this directly on not signing Matsui or Delgado.
You can’t even admit to yourself that Posada could have slightly worse numbers hitting 5th than he would have had batting 6th? I can and if you can say that it would be more worth it to sign Delgado because you would have Posada in a spot he is much more comfortable batting.
Then bat Mel;ky or Gardner/Cervelli 5th next season and see how AROD likes that and see what his numbers look like.I honestly think it doesn’t matter at all who Yankees bat 2nd.They can bat Jeter 2nd and score runs with Granderson leading off.
Yeah, that’s not taking my point to a ridiculous conclusion at all. Why not bat Gardner or Cervelli 2nd and see how Teixeira likes it that the bases are always empty. As I said above, if you have two hitters for those two spots, I put the better guy at 2, because I want him on base for my big boppers.
Having Matsui batting 5th wit Cano 2nd is more valuable than Johnson 2nd and Posada 5th I will stand behind this all season!
And I’ll disagree, so let’s agree to disagree.
… but arguing is so much more fun Moe!! hahaha
I actually really need to get off and do stuff but I was really having fun with this argument as you usually do keep me on my toes in a debate.
We will shall see how this turns out but I don’t think he can stay healthy all season.
Lol. I’ve got my last final all day tomorrow. After that, I’ll do a full post on this and we could talk about it all day.
You don’t get it with the DelGado crap.I highly doubt knowing the Steinbrener family and Yankee organization that a team who sings God Bless America every night and a team so connected to our military through PR and the family is going to sign a guy who wouldn’t stand for the National Anthem.
He was NEVER mentioned and would never be signed IMO.
Someone would bring his name up in strategy meetings and F-k him would have been somebody else in that room’s response.
Are you serious? We don’t sign people because they don’t stand for a song???
Are we going to start hate bashing Muslims now too?
I’d say Larry is way off here.
I’d say if Johnson had gotten a 2 year from the Giants and not signed with us that Delgado would have been the next logical choice on the list…
I would expect Posada’s production will get worse and worse next 2 seasons as his age and as aches and pains of catching creep in.Even as it is now I don’t want a double play guy like him protecting AROD.That’s an invitation to keep walking AROD and hope for a grounder.
Not as if Posada hasn’t always been an over anxious hitter who can be fooled with the breaking ball in the dirt.
Yeah, Matsui never hits into double plays.
Yeah I don’t think double plays really applies here…
Overall however I do think Matsui hitting 5th does bring less walks to Alex in big situations with a base open than having Posada, Cano or Granderson 5th does… They just aren’t going to put up numbers in that spot in the lineup that prevent other teams from challenging them over Arod as Matsui had done last year.
Are you serious? The difference in real power and fake power doesn’t matter?
Damon hit 7 HRs on the road last year while Matsui hit 15… Do you really think more than double the amount of HRs doesn’t matter? How can you make that argument?
You are looking at the numbers by themselves not actually diving into what the numbers mean… If you have a game on the road in Fenway against the Sox and you need a game tying HR who would you rather have at bat in the 5th hole? Damon or Matsui? Matsui every time because he hits with real power while Damon would have to wait until we got back to Yankee stadium to contribute with that HR.
Really 2 years 20 million? I figured he would get 1 year and between 7-8 million which is exactly what he got…. I love Cameron and wanted him on the Yankees but 2 year is to rich for a 37 year old.
I actually think GArdner should be an every day player and would be on base a lot if he batted 2nd and they let him play like he did in Spring training and before the thumb.
Matsui protected AROd better than anyone else can.Better than Posada, Granderson, Johnson or Cano could.MAtsui was big time last season.
Cano- Not selective enough to bat behind AROD.
Posada- OLD, slow and not as dangerous as MAtsui.
Nick Johnson- Below matsui at his best.FLawed but a better #2 than a 5.
Granderson- Strikes out too much and doesn’t hit lefties anymore.
None come close to Matsui as protection for AROD.
Love the deal. Nick Johnson is in many ways an upgrade over Johnny Damon. The lack of flexibility will hurt, but to be honest I’m perfectly fine with that. Worst case scenario, Johnson sits on the bench a little bit. Melky Cabrera and Jamie Hoffmann are your new left fielders.
Another good point: Nick Johnson wasn’t all that far away from Type A status this year. With a full season, he could be a Type A free agent next year, and with 5.5 million dollars as his base salary, the Yankees can easily offer him arbitration.
Nick Johnson has averaged 106 games a year over the past seven seasons. Statistically, he may provide more to a team than Damon (although that’s imminently debatable if you look at the numbers below) but the fact that he can’t stay healthy certainly cuts into his value. Who becomes the full-time DH when Johnson misses 60 games this year? Adding Frankie Cervelli and Ramiro Pena into the everyday lineup to give Posada/A-Rod plenty of DH AB’s doesn’t improve the team at all.
Damon:
wOBA – .351
wRC+ – 112
WAR – ?3.1
Johnson:
wOBA – .371
wRC+ – 130
WAR – ?2.5
As for the notion that Melky/Hoffmann are good enough to platoon in LF, that truly remains to be seen. We already know that Melky provides absolutely nothing to an offense and we don’t yet know what Hoffman brings to the table.
For all of Johnson’s strengths — and I don’t dispute that he has value — his fragility leaves a lot to be desired.
Finally, the whole arbitration/Type A stuff is just noise. For starters, we don’t know if he’ll make it to Type A status or not and it would take the Yanks offering it to him for it to amount to anything. What if the Yanks don’t want to pay a broken-down Nick Johnson $6.5-7M next year? They certainly didn’t want to pay Nady that much…
I’d say I’m not.Guys like me buy those expensive tickets.This isn’t the Mets fan base.I’m not interested in over the hill politics playing baseball players and neither is Cashman and the Steinbrenner family.I guarantee it.
Look at the quality people they have been bringing , guys like Granderson and NJ.They aren’t bringing in a clubhouse cancer with a stupid past.
I don’t know how anyone can really not like (or rather love)the signing.
He is still a good hitter at this point in time. His OBP was better than anyone on the Yankees last season, I believe. Stick that in the 2 hole in front of Tex and A-Rod and holy shit, look out MLB.