From John Harper (Daily News):
If this were the Oscars, where a long career of unrewarded greatness has been known to help put a deserving nominee over the top, Mariano Rivera would be a shoo-in this season to win his first Cy Young Award.In baseball, however, career achievement almost never factors into the voting on such awards. Furthermore, relievers have won only 11 out of 97 times the Cy Young has been awarded, so despite still another season of brilliance, Rivera is probably closer to a longshot.
The man they call Mo is deserving, to be sure. And even though a hot September from starters such as Zack Grienke, Justin Verlander, CC Sabathia, Felix Hernandez or Josh Beckett could make any of them the front-runner for the award, none is having the kind of lights-out season that would all but eliminate talk of a reliever winning.
That leaves the door open for Rivera, assuming the groin tightness the Yankees disclosed Wednesday night only keeps him out a few days as Rivera says he expects. Because to this point he is not only leading the American League with 38 saves, but also pitching to a 1.78 ERA and has coverted 34 straight saves opportunities, the longest streak of his career, while blowing only one save all season.
I think Harper taps into a larger debate here—should relievers be considered Cy Young candidates?
I guess it ultimately depends on how much you value relievers. I’ve often thought that relief pitchers are generally overvalued but I’m sure many of you would disagree, especially when discussing Mariano Rivera. However, when you consider the way in which a starting pitcher can influence 200+ innings per season, I think it makes sense to view their work as “more valuable,” although that sounds rather negative.
In terms of 2009 and Mariano Rivera’s chances for the Cy Young, I believe Harper is pitching his idea from a subjective perspective—a fan’s perspective—rather than an objective one. It’s not that Rivera isn’t deserving, I just think that, contrary to what Harper says above, starters like Zack Greinke (the favorite), Justin Verlander, CC Sabathia, and Felix Hernandez really do deserve the Cy Young Award more than he does. I mean, how does Harper say that Zack Greinke isn’t having a “lights-out” season? That’s just absurd.
What do you think? Does Mo deserve the Cy Young? I don’t think so—not when compared to the starters up for the award—but perhaps you can make a better argument than Harper did.
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16 Responses to Cy Young for Rivera?
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TIQ IQ
Right now if I had a vote it would Greinke, Sabathia, Verlander, Felix Hernandez and Mariano Rivera that would be my top 5 as it stands today but if CC gets 19 or 20 wins and lowers his ERA into the low 3.3s (he has lowered his ERA every start since the all star break and is at 3.48 right) then he would be my winner because he put up great numbers as the “Ace” of the best team in baseball and pitched more innings than any other pitcher in the AL while doing it all in the AL East. My biggest problem with Greinke winning the award is that he doesn’t have to face the best teams in the league… He did not face the Red Sox this year and he has missed the Yankees, now CC has had o face the Red Sox what 4 separate times this year and twice since the all star break and he probably will have to pitch against them one more time. Who does Greinke have to face that is so tough… In his last few games he has faced the Indians, the Mariners, Oakland, Baltimore and the White Sox.None of those teams are great and none of them have an offense that is even that good.
I’m pretty sure my ballot would match yours exactly, although I might put Felix up a bit, I need to look at the numbers. Greinke deserves it unless he cools off and CC stays hot.
Greinke should definitely get it. Sure, he hasn’t faced the Red Sox or the Yankees, but I’m actually happy about that (I’m happy that the Yankees didn’t have to deal with him, yikes). He has faced Texas, LA, Detroit and other top teams, though. I’d give it to him, then my ballot would be: Felix, Verlander, Sabathia (CC is getting up there—if he continues, he’d be my second choice).
I don’t know how I feel about giving him the award for best pitcher in the league yet he had the least amount of pressure on his starts than anyone! I for one think the Yankees and the Red Sox would have raised his ERA quite a bit, he does his best against free swinging teams and dominates young line ups we have the perfect mix of veterans and smart hitters to wait him out and put runs on the board. Can Greinke really be the best pitcher in the AL when he has known since the second month of the season that not one of his starts means anything to the team so he doesn’t have to worry about winning he can just focus on strike outs and making his own numbers look good in a bad division. a guy like CC or Becket (although he should be eliminated from the award at this point) pitches in the toughest division in the league (even Baltimore and Toronto can hit) on one of the best teams in the league as the Ace of a pitching staff that doesn’t just want to win but if they don’t win and do well enough to get to the series then there seasons were a complete waste Cy Young or not. Not to mention if the G man was pitching in New York with the pressure on players in this market he would still be having his nerve problem and all that. It’s just not as simple as pure numbers, especially when another player has similarly good numbers with more innings, more wins and way more pressure on his starts.
I don’t think you can really use that argument against Greinke.
Saying that he pitches in meaningless games doesn’t mean that the Cy Young isn’t his (look at Tim Lincecum in 2008—did he not deserve that award?). That would be a highly biased look at a title that is awarded based on one’s individual performance. It shouldn’t be awarded based on one’s geography or team performance and if it were, that would mean that AL East pitchers would be given an unfair advantage because they pitch in a more competitive division. Also, this idea that he doesn’t play in a pennant race and therefore has been given the opportunity to focus on his individual performance alone is a slippery slope. Should A-Rod’s MVP trophies be taken away for playing on bad Texas teams?
Also, to say that Greinke would still be having his nerve problems and therefore, his performance wouldn’t be as good is an absurd statement. First off, that’s not provable and secondly, it’s just a bad line of reasoning (and an unfair one at that). Greinke is taking medication for his problem and we shouldn’t use his depression as a means to discount his talent this year.
First of all had anyone come close to Tim’s numbers last year (for instance if Carpenter was healthy and the Card went to the playoffs) then I would have debated giving the Cy to a guy on a terrible team, also while I love Alex he didn’t deserve the MVP award he won with the Rangers because they were dead last in the division and he didn’t mean a thing to his team that year, in fact he was the opposite of “value” because they would have been better off trading him for talent (which they sort of did). I do think that AL East pitchers and any pitchers for that matter who pitch in a better division than a pitcher he is competing against for an award should have a slight advantage in the running based on the fact they are facing better competition more often… Say two pitchers win 20 games one faced the Red Sox 4 times and won all 4 games and pitched great and the other guy had 4 games against the Royals and the two had the same or similar ERA in the end… who did better? The pitcher who had to compete against one of the better hitting teams in baseball did and it should be taken into consideration when voting for the Cy Young that one had more powder teams than the other did.
I say it is completely fair for you to judge to people on a similar field and for this award you have a pitcher pitching in the toughest media market in the world for the best team in baseball with highest pay roll and he himself has the biggest contract for any pitcher ever and another pitcher who is pitching in Kansas City on a perennial loser with no expectations at all and very little to no media coverage and none outside of Kansas City. Clearly the pressure level on one is higher than the other and I feel that should be taken into account the same as pressure on winning and losing does… Greinke would be thrown into a town that would monitor his every movement, his every pitch, his every sneeze would be recorded and he has proven that is something he has a hard time with so I don’t think it is unfair to say he would be less effective in that environment. You could say with certainty if Greinke was a Yankee he would have worse even if only slightly worse numbers based off opponents and stress level and level of competition that exists on a winning club, on the other hand you can almost certainly say CC would have the same or better numbers facing lower talent level and not having his starts matter as much in a smaller media market.
If Mo gets the CY it will be because none of the starters grabbed it, and he’s being honored for a great year in a great career. Still I wish that they would come up with a reliever award on par with the CY and MVP. The Rolaids Relief award is little more than a jokey ad campaign.
It’d be interesting if they came up with something like that (it won’t happen anytime soon, I suppose). I’ve hear about giving Mo tribute with the Cy Young Award this year but if it’s likely going to Greinke—a kid who battled depression only to emerge the best starter in the game—I think that’s a hard sell.
Once Mo retires I think they should wait for a few years and then make the Mariano Rivera relievers award… Pay tribute to the first great closer in the one inning relief era, and since he never won a Cy Young he would have his own award.
I would certainly love to see a “Mo” award, and while they’re at it let them get around to a Ted Williams award for best position player, so we can finally end MVP “individual worth vs team standing” debate that we run into every year. I would, BTW, keep the MVP, but limit it to the 8 playoff teams (all players, pitchers and position).
Not a bad idea but when do the awards become meaningless when you have several of the same kind.
Geinke and Mauer are having seasons that transcend all of the ‘has to play with a winner’ stuff.
Banks won an MVP with a second division club, then won it again. These two players are having seasons at least as valuable as either of his.
I just don’t agree! It’s not the same thing pitching or hitting on a winner then someone pitching on a contender or best team in baseball it just isn’t the same mind set and you don’t have to value the team above your own stats. I would give Greinke the Cy over giving Mauer the MVP his BA is .367 only .030 points higher than Jeter and he is hitting a HR every 16.04 at bats while Mark is mashing one every 15.91 at bats but he is doing it in a situation where RBI singles and moving the runner over no matter the cost to your own numbers is more important to the club than trying to smash a HR every time out because the team you play for is dead in the water but at least you can still shine mentality. Home runs isn’t the most important stat in the world but he is driving in more runs and hitting with more power than Mauer on a team that is looking to make it to the world series and with out him the team is fighting it out with the Rays for third in the division right now. He is just as productive as Mauer (the average would be better had he not hit .180 before Arod showed up) and much more valuable to the team he plays for and he is second in the AL in Hrs and RBI.
The Cy Young isn’t looked at the way the MVP is. I can understand team play factoring into MVP voting because the candidates for MVP are playing everyday. With pitchers, though, that’s not how it works. They’re only given a certain amount of starts and the best pitcher during those starts—the guy who gave his team the best opportunity to win—should be given the award.
I’m not saying team success should matter only but what I am saying is the amount of stress on that start matters… Greinke Vs Ian Snell or whoever doesn’t have near the amount of pressure on it CC Sabathia Vs anyone does because CCs games still mean something and Greinke’s don’t so his ultimate goal is whatever he asks of himself not what the team and fan base is demanding.
Just to add to this Greinke gets the Indians, White Sox, Twins and Tigers as rivals in his division which gives him one team that can really hit, one team with an OK line up but has holes and then the Indians and White Sox who even with Thome weren’t a very great hitting team. Sabathia has the Orioles, the Blue Jays, the Ray and the Red Sox and everyone of those teams can hit and two of them are in the top 5 in the AL in hitting… the level of base competition between the two should at least be taken into consideration when looking at the numbers. If CC gets the ERA down to 3.3 and Greinke doesn’t just blow him away down the stretch then there is a real case to make for CC Sabathia as the AL Cy Young winner and when you do consider he plays in the Media capital he is going to get some votes for sure.