From the usually thoughtful Joel Sherman:
There has been a lot of internet chatter recently about the identity of the AL MVP, mainly centering around the candidacies of Mark Teixeira and Joe Mauer. There is still more than six weeks to go, so while it all makes for interesting debate, there is still a lot of games left to swing the vote.
But this, to me, continues to be about the debate between those who believe everything can be defined by statistics vs. those who believe in their eyes (usually scouts, but in this case mainly newspaper writers who are with one team daily). I want to believe that I have a foot in both worlds. I like that the stats give me a guidepost, but I still believe there are intangibles in the game, and also that the stats can often be too one-dimensional and not provide a full picture.
I strongly disagree with Joel on this one. While the debate is between those two groups, it really has nothing to do with a stats vs. eyes question. We see Teixeira every day, but only see Mauer 7 times a season, so our eyes are bound to be skewed towards the hometown player. However, anyone who watched those games against the Twins saw how good Mauer is. Looking at their numbers and even watching them on the field, I am not sure an argument can be made for Tex, IF the games were played in a vacuum, without context. Mauer is having one of the best seasons ever by a catcher, possibly the best. Teixeira is having a nice season for a first baseman, but his numbers are not much better than those of Kevin Youkilis, Justin Mourneau, and Miguel Cabrera.
What is the debate? The game is not played in a vacuum. Teixeira is playing well for a great team and helping them win important games. Mauer is having an amazing season for a mediocre team, one that will likely finish out of the money. While the instructions on the MVP ballot specifically state that the MVP need not be from a contender, many voters feel that it should be limited to those players. Those in the stathead community disagree, and feel that the writers should recognize a historic season by Mauer with an award that he probably could have won at least once before.
How do you feel about it? Can an MVP come from a .500 or below team?
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15 Responses to Sherman On The Tex Vs. Mauer Debate
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TIQ IQ
The most valuable player is one who, in my opinion, contributes the most wins to a single team over the course of a season. Whether those contributions come to the benefit of a 1st place team or a 4th place team should not matter, because baseball is a team sport. It’s not Joe Mauer’s fault that the Twins don’t have above-average players at other positions, or the best pitching staff in the league.
Hypothetically, if a player’s contributions are responsible for, say, 10 or 15 or 20 wins over the course of a season, and the next best player’s contributions are responsible for 8 or 9, that first player should win the MVP, even if his team only won a total of 40 or 50 games.
I think that it’s very hard to choose the most VALUABLE player of a league as a player on a non-contender. However, I would do it if the player had overwhelming stats, yada yada yada. I think the AL vote will be close between Tex and Mauer (if the season ended today). But remember, we still have over a month left!
Do you think Mauer has overwhelming stats? I do, and would vote for him. I think this is a very tough question, because the ballot specifically states that value should not be tied up in whether the team is winning, but voters have used that as a criteria for years.
Mauer is the most valuable player in the American league, and it’s not close. He does more to win baseball games than anyone else in the AL, and it’s not even close. If ‘value’ is measured by any other criteria, then it’s not ‘The Most Valuable Player’, but ‘the most valuable player who fits these other criteria that have no bearing on the value of the player in question.’
Ask yourself this question please and see if it determines “value”… What kind of record would the Yankees have with Swisher starting at 1B and Eric Hinske playing right? Now what kind of record would the Twins have with no Mauer? The Yankees drop to a below .500 team and 3rd place in the AL east, the Twins on the other hand probably don’t have all that worse a record than they do right, they probably lose a few more games but it doesn’t plummet them because they aren’t a winning team with him and they aren’t a winning team with out him. tex makes the difference the Al East this year, in a perfect world Arod is probably MVP for most valuable but if Tex wasn’t on the Yankees we would be a basement dwelling team missing the playoffs two consecutive years and you can’t deny it.
I disagree here. Mauer has been better than Tex so far this year, and remving him would cost his team more wins than removing Tex. That being said, you could argue that who cares about taking away wins from a non-playoff team.
That’s what I am saying… If you take Mauer away from the Twins they may lose some more games than they have but they are a losing team with Mauer so they would be a losing team with out him. Tex makes the difference in a winner and a loser for the Yankees, I don’t see anyway we have an above .500 record with out Mark playing 1B everyday, he has won games with his glove and bat.
So Mauer should be penalized because his teammates stink?
His at bats don’t matter as much because of the fact his team stinks so that does have to be noted when voting for either of the two. If Alex Gordon of the Royals were hitting .340 with 28 HRs no one would talking about him as an MVP because the Royals are a terrible team… team success matters because otherwise how are you “valuable” to your team? You may have an impact but it wasn’t enough for the team to do anything, Tex may have good team mates but if he were not on the team the Yankees would not be a play off team, that is “value”.
I guess it depends how you define value.
Mauer is the MVP, no question about it. But the argument is not stats vs scouts, is in the belief that the MVP should come form a contender vs the Best Player on any team. That´s why Tex is going to have a lot of votes
I think it’s a little to early to debate Mauer winning on a .500 or below team… If Mauer finishes the year batting .340 or .335 (playing catcher he could wear down and go below .340) and Tex finishes .300 or .310 and has more HRs on the better team the award should go to Tex no debate, but if Mauer continues to hit .380 playing catcher then he probably deserves the award. However I will say this him and Morneau are two good players on what is a bad team that has no choice but to try and out score there opponents, the at bats they have don’t mean as much as the ones Tex and Arod have because they don’t play in a big market and they aren’t in a playoff/world series run. I think that is something that while it shouldn’t mean everything it should be taken into account when judging MVP, if tex comes up and its a close game he has a lot of pressure to preform not for himself but for the team and get the team a win when Mauer does it he pretty much can just think of himself at this point the teams needs aren’t necessarily first in his mind when he could win MVP.
Chris H, try to be coherent. First you claim Mauer is hitting well because he “has no choice” thanks to his poor teammates (can Edwin Encarnacion start hitting because he has no choice; What kind of fantasy land do you live in?). Then you go on to say he has no pressure on him. Wouldn’t having poor teammates put more pressure on him to perform?
And the Twins have been, and still technically are, in the central division race. Your claim that he is only thinking about himself comes from nowhere; you’re just trying to put him down.
And the Yankees are up seven games in the East while the Twins are down 6.5 games in the central. Which player can’t afford to make an out? Tex has a line-up full of all stars and a very good pitching staff. COME ON!
You’re only resorting to these bullshit arguments because you know a .383 hitting gold glove catcher is so fucking valuable that there’s no real arguments against him.
Mauer in an easy race. The Twins would be terrible without him.
Check out Steve Carlton in 1972:
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/PHI/1972.shtml
It seems that in general playing for a contender improves a candidate’s chances.
BUT…..
When one player clearly performs head and shoulders above the rest of the league, and his impact on his team is so overwhelmingly undeniable (27 out of the teams 59 wins), it can actually improve his chances of winning the Cy Young/MVP.
NOTE: Steve Carlton was the unanimous choice for the Cy Young award in 1972. There was not one dissenting voter who felt he should not win since he doesn’t play for a contender.