Today was a fun game to watch as the Yankees defeated the Detroit Tigers for the third consecutive day, sweeping them out of the Bronx as the Bombers prepare to face Baltimore. Again we were treated to a pitchers’ duel, with Edwin Jackson—who I was lucky enough to speak with, albeit briefly, at Friday’s game—and the always controversial Joba Chamberlain on the hill. While Edwin was certainly dominant, Joba was exceptional Training Day buy . He struck out 8 over 6.2 innings, giving up only 1 ER on 3 hits (he walked 3). With a strong start from Joba and some great work from the Yankee bullpen (Coke, Hughes, Mo), all the Yankees needed from their offense came in the form of two solo jacks by A-Rod and Teixeira to make it 2-1. Overall, it was a great performance for the Yankees and for the recently maligned Joba, whose struggles this year have been widely documented.
What was particularly interesting about today’s game, however, was the way in which Joba pitched. From the first inning to the third inning, Joba’s fastball generally sat around the 90-93 mph range. From the fourth to the seventh inning, he was throwing in the 92-97 mph range. There seemed to be a noticeable jump in Joba’s FB velocity as the game wore on. When you consider the results—he struck out 6 batters between the fourth and seventh inning (3.2 innings total) as compared to just 2 in the previous 3 innings—it makes you wonder why, exactly, Joba doesn’t air it out earlier in the game. Some argue that Joba’s velocity is down in general, which I agree with, though I think there’s a lack of consistent velocity in each start (this is indicative of a pattern).
Is Joba trying to conserve his stuff or does he adapt and pitch differently as the game progresses? Why can’t we see a few more 95 mph fastballs in the first inning? If they can be delivered with regularity from the fourth to the seventh inning, one would think that Joba could throw a few more in the earlier stages of a ballgame (of the 23 pitches he threw in the first inning only one was a 96 mph fastball), right? Is this a warmup issue or is it just the way that Joba works now that he’s in the rotation? As you can see, while I’m clearly thrilled to watch Joba dominate a first place team on a beautiful Sunday afternoon, I’m also rather perplexed.
Anyone else notice this and, if you did, is it nothing or is it something?
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25 Responses to Joba dominates, but questions still remain…
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I think that it is a mechanical and mental issue. After the home run, something seemed to click there, as if he was sick of nibbling.
I’ve wondered if it’s mechanical. In fact, yesterday’s game would be good to examine for mechanical differences in Joba’s motion from the first to the seventh inning.
He stopped throwing the sinker and starting throwing hard again. He should be pitching like an old Mussina and he finally got back to who he should be.
Joba is if I can use a football analogy a lot like a LaDanian Tomlinson or Jim Brown or Earl Campbell in that the more pitches he throws (or the more carries the running backs got) the stronger and more effective they become. I really see nothing wrong with it, I mean you see a lot off pitchers today who throw there best stuff early and slowly get worse having a pitcher who does nothing but get better is something that can make him great if he learns how to start strong and get through the first two innings. I ask you all to recall the 3 year period where Mike Mussina would throw shut outs for the first 4 innings and then every game he would have a shaky 5th inning that he sometimes just couldn’t get through and it really killed us as a team. My point is every pitcher has an inning or two of trouble in almost every game, the best ones just have that inning earlier and limit the amount of damage done, for example check CC out in yesterdays game.
Joba is adjusting to being a starter. He can’t go max effort out of the gate or he will not last long at all. The problem is that he doesn’t want to immediately to throw that 95 heater because he doesn’t want to get injured. He seems to believe that he can get hurt like someone who doesn’t stretch properly and immediately gives 100% to only pull a hamstring or strain a quad. If he learns to warm up in a better way and feels that he is not at a greater risk of getting hurt in the first few innings than the rest of the game he will become what the Yankees envision he could become. This doesn’t happen over night and what also seems to be contributing to the problem is the innings limit that the Yankees put on him. He doesn’t want to get hurt so that he can reach that innings limit, and be able to throw more innings the following season.
Last year his shoulder tendinitis halted his growth as he was only able to throw 100 innings and finish the season in the bullpen. As fans we just need a little patient and as he creeps closer to that limit I believe that he will show his potential and become a better pitcher as he knows that he can pitch at his best without suffering a setback that will affect him the following season. Pitchers in their first full season usually struggle so we should expect this. He is young and raw and it didn’t help that he pitched very few innings as a starter in the minor league and learn to get through a game without your best stuff.
I think this start will really help Joba he gains more confidence over his stuff and ability to go deep into games sure but he also got to hear the boos that came with Girardi taking him out and the near standing O that the crowd gave him as he left, which is a first in the New Yankee stadium as Chamberlain has been awful at home this year. I really don’t think that Joba needs to throw 95 in the first inning he just needs to throw 92 or 93 and slowly build off of that, the only time I worry is if he is starting 89 or 90 because then he usually only builds up to 92-94 so to me it’s not about starting with his best stuff it’s about starting with good stuff and building off of that.
Joba has been like this his entire starting career (all 30ish starts or w/e it is) games like last year he would start around 96 and would sometimes hit 101 in the 5th and 6th innings
I never remember him hitting 101 as a starter last year, if you saw that on YES network the gun was wrong, they had Joba’s breaking ball today no lower than 95 the whole game his breaking balls at 95. While Joba has always been a starter who finishes stronger than he starts he has not consistently started as high as he did in this game all year. If he would come out and hit 93 like he did in getting his last out in the first he can build up to 97 and be the dominate starter we all know he can be, it’s when he waits to hit 93 until the 3rd or 4th inning that he can’t get strong enough. Basically this start is what I have wanted to see all year from Chamberlain, even though he did struggle in the first two innings today he hit 93 in the first inning which allows his fastball set up his other pitches, most often his slider which is almost unhittable when he is throwing 96, however he used his curve ball more and more effectively today than he did the slider. He is starting to develop the Curve and the change to a point where he can throw any pitch he wants at any count, now if he can just throw them for strikes like he did today from the 3-7 innings we have an ace on our hands.
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I really liked watching Hughes come in and throw an arm pump after striking out two batters in relief of Chamberlain, I know it’s not the plan but Hughes really could be auditioning to take over for Mo… I mean it would sort of be a complete circle replace Mo with a starter turned set up man out of necessity and keep him there to close because of the new found dominance.
Or Hughes could be auditioning to be the number 5 starter next year which is much more likely. Mo is the greatest reliever on the planet yet during the regular season he’s about as valuable as a number 3 starter. It’s sad but it’s true.
Joba was right around 100 at times in the game in Boston that he beat Beckett. He threw just as hard as a starter as he did as a reliever before he hurt his arm in Texas.
Again if you saw those numbers on YES they were wrong, most of the times the number on YES are wrong and they haven’t show a breaking ball at less than 90 this week. Joba had pitched around 98 in that game against Beckett but it was toward the end and he did not enter the game throwing 96 he started out around 92 or 93.
Last year, the YES gun was notoriously slow.
It’s important to note that Joba was primarily in the 90-92 mph range in the first inning. He even threw an 89 mph pitch if my memory serves me correctly. He threw the hardest to Polanco in the first, probably because Polanco is hard to K and was battling. I’m fine with Joba if he’s throwing 93 early, but that seems to be his max velocity in the early innings—it’s not the norm for him (at least not until the later innings).
He hit 93 in Polanco’s at bat which set him up for a stronger inning in the second and even more so in the 3rd.
From Joe over at RAB:
“Addressing the controversial subject, Joba’s velocity, he averaged just a hair under 93 with his fastball, but that’s a bit misleading. According to Gameday he was throwing mostly 91, 92 mph fastballs in the first three innings, touching 93 sometimes. Then Clete Thomas hit that homer to lead off the fourth, to which Joba reacted by ripping off 94, 95, 96 mph fastballs, topping out at just a hair under 97. It also seemed like he was a bit more conscientious of his velocity, as he kept it down for eight and nine hitters Gerald Laird and Ramon Santiago, while ramping it up for Granderson and the heart of the order.”
While I agree with Joe’s assessment, I don’t think I would agree with theory that he was keeping his velocity down for guys like Laird and Santiago and then ramping it up for the heart of the order. He was throwing harder in general after the third inning.
Do you think we overthink Joba at all? Maybe just a little?
Sabathia or Burnett have these kinds of issues, and we don’t go nuts over it.
There’s something about Joba’s stardom that fascinates us Yankees mavens! I’m just as guilty of it as anyone else–I’ve seen what he can do and am pulling for him to be the pitcher who we think he can become.
But I know I need to have patience for his issues. It’s important to remember that he’s only 23, and the kinds of struggles he’s had this year are typical for kids his age.
It’s fun to watch him grow, and I’m hoping that something clicked today…
On another note, as much as I love watching Hughes in the setup role this year, I pine for him to be returned to the rotation — just because I like watching him pitch so much. It seems that this stint is doing great things for his confidence though, and that is tremendous in a sport as heady as baseball.
I think you’re last comment is spot on (others are good too !)
I think the Yankees identified that Hughes’ struggles were in his head and allowing him to find his feet in the Majors in bite size chunks has made a big difference to him. I think you’ll see a new Pitcher when he hits the rotation at the start of next year… :o)
When it comes to Hughes in the rotation vs the bull pen it’s not the same argument as Joba to the pen because Joba was throwing 98-100 in the pen and we all have seen he can throw 92-98 when starting when he is right, however this is not the case with Hughes… He never threw more than 92 or 93 while starting and stayed pretty much permanently at 89-91 and with that velocity he throws one of the straightest balls in the league, while I have noticed out of the pen he seems to have not only added velocity but the velocity added some extra movement to his pitches that I believe he needs to be successful. This shows up in the fact that he had to add the cutter to his repertoire in order to keep hitters off of his straight fastball and even brought his slider back into the picture because of ineffectiveness at the big league level. As far a s pure stuff goes I don’t think Hughes has the potential to be more than an average 3 starter or good 4 but when you take into account how much more sharply his curveball breaks and how much more movement and velocity he has added to his fastball out of the pen he has a make up to end the debate over who takes the 9th from Rivera long term. I am fine with putting him back in the rotation he has earned that much next season but the numbers are drastically different starting to relieving than with Joba… at his worse Joba had gone up to a 4.5 ERA or so and is almost back down to a 3 after his last start (4.05 ERA), while Hughes has just now got his overall ERA down to 3.70 after putting up a .84 ERA in 21 relief innings compared to his 5.45 ERA in 34 starting innings. Someone said in the regular season Mo’s value is that of a 5th starter so would you rather have a 5th starter with a 5 ERA or a closer with .85 ERA? Now obviously Hughes can improve as a starter and implode as a closer but if you look purely at stuff he has more value in the pen and more value than Joba does in the pen because of Joba’s ability to throw hard as a starter and Hughes lack of it.
I couldn’t disagree more. Hughes has already added velocity in his last few starts. He is showing the stuff that made him the top pitching prospect in baseball. He will be a number 1 type pitcher. He regained his stuff because this is the first time he’s been healthy for a full season in two years. He has a plus fastball with amazing command. He has an excellent curveball and a good cutter. The change will come as he starts again. He is going to be a great starting pitcher.
I pitched a bit in the independent leagues and was considered a “power-pitcher” then (could get it up to 93 with no clue where it was going and could throw a breaking ball to save my life). I learned very quickly that you don’t start with your best fastball. It’s just like a long-distance race where you pace yourself towards the beginning and let it all hang out towards the end. I think you see this with most pitchers but we notice it with Joba because we’re obsessed with his radar gun readings.
Velocity isn’t everything. The only thing Joba needs to do is get swing and misses on fastballs in the strike zone. That’s the hardest thing for a pitcher to do and separates the average starter from the ace.
Well if you want to look at it that way Joba had 10 swings and misses after 5 innings and at least 12 swings and misses through the 6.2 IP total several of those on fastballs in the zone.
Jon G wrote what I was going to, so I’ll just say ‘amen!’
Joba had the same diesease that Rick “wildthing” Vaughn had, “savin my arm-itis”. He may have caught it from Burnette. But pitching doesn’t have to be rocket science: In-out, up-down, and fast-slow all with a little movement. It helps when a catcher puts up a consistant target which Jorge only does when Mo pitches (see film).
First off I was the hardest on Joba and I have to say I was very pleased with yesterday’s performance. I do wonder if we are all being fooled by the yes gun. I was watching the game on TBS and he was constantly in the 95-97 range. I have also watched him on espn and he is higher. Is there jus an issue with the yes gun? I also agree for some reason he seems to wait to the middle iniings to start throwing harder I dont get it myself but he should know that when he is at 93-97 he is dominant at 89-92 he is average.
The YES gun is crap! You get the best reads on the internet and on other networks, truthfully the best way to tell is just by looking at how the hitters are swinging at the fastball, are they fouling it off? are they swinging through fastballs in the zone, and are they chasing the slider and change like fastballs and not sitting back and waiting for them and all of those question’s had a yes to them yesterday. All that matters is that Joba is hitting 93 at least once or twice in the first inning, if you track all of his A+ games this season including yesterdays and the 8 inning game he pitched he hit 93 at least once in every game. On the reverse side of that the games he has struggled in the most were 3 separate rain delayed games where he never got above 90 or 91 in the first inning and was mostly sitting on 89. I really think the rain delays can’t be over looked Joba has pitched in 5 rain delayed games where the start of the game was delayed by at least and hour and he struggled in every game and his velocity suffered in every one of those starts. I think having so many rain delays fall on his starts set his development back a little this year because he got loose for most of those games and then had to sit for hours until the game started and he never got a rhythm, now I know that rain is a apart of baseball and something everyone has to deal with but 5 starts affected by rain in your first 15 starts of your first full year starting is going to affect you because you haven’t dealt with it much in the pace to be accustomed to it.