From Joel Sherman:
This is not a Joe Girardi criticism. This is a criticism of all managers for continuing to let a statistic prevail over common sense. I only use the decision by Girardi on Sunday to highlight what I feel is total stupidity.
The score was 4-4 going to the bottom of the ninth in Cleveland and the Indians had just used their closer, Kerry Wood, to pitch to the top of the ninth. To preserve a tie and force extra innings, Girardi used first Phil Coke and then David Robertson and together those two conspired to yield the winning run. The Yankees lost without ever using their best reliever, Mariano Rivera. The theory goes that – on the road – you hold your closer until you have a save situation. And I have always found that to be ludicrous.
The Lawnmower Man download The first job of the visiting manager in that game is to force extra innings and the best chance of doing that is to use your best reliever. I believe you have to manage that game as if you are going to score several runs in extra innings and make it easier for any reliever to close the game. But even if you don’t, who cares?
In no other sport do you ignore the best person for a job in anticipation of rewarding that person with a statistic that may never become available. And why is pitching a sudden-death inning – the home team scores in a tie game that team wins – any less pressure packed then pitching with, say, a one-run lead in extra innings?
Personally, I do not think this strategy has much to do with the save statistic. It has a lot more to do with the irrational fear from managers of burning their best reliever in a spot that will not end the game. They ignore the fact that they could lose the game now, in the 9th, so that they might be able to hold onto their top bullpen guy for a situation where he can win the game for them. In the mind of a manager, the best thing that can happen in the bottom of the 9th is forcing extra innings, at which point he would need to use a lesser reliever anyhow. So while logic would dictate using your better reliever so as to get another chance at bat and possibly win the game, fear causes managers to save their closer for a possibly “more important” spot later. Joe Girardi has shown a willingness to break the mold of bullpen roles in his usage of Alfredo Aceves. Hopefully he figures out that not using Rivera in a tie game on the road is a poor strategic move, and decides to buck that trend as well.
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17 Responses to Sherman: Managerial Stupidity
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TIQ IQ
I believe this is one of those catch 22 situations. No matter what he does, if it turns out the same…he would be second guessed.
But he should not manage to avoid being criticized, he should choose the correct baseball decision, and he did not.
Amen, OR.
Joe Torre played every game in April & MAy like they were the 7th game of the World series and therefore burnt out his bullpen and often had a tired Mo get beaten up late in the playoffs and WS.
You can’t have it both ways.
Either you let Coke and RObertson fail in May with the hope they develop by July-August or you do what Joe Torre did, which IMO opinion cost us more than one potential Championship.
If Coke and Robertson can’t do it, bring up Melancon and Dunn or whomever but in either case you have to have confidence in the guys up here and you have to pitch them in critical situations on occasion.
I agree with LL-you have to use the other RP, and if they can’t do the job you have to bring in someone that will. I think both of the guys used in the 9th are good RP, and that they failed to do the job doesn’t alter the strategy.
I really don’t see how bringing Mo into that situation makes a lick of sense-if he gets through the inning unscathed he still needs to pitch at least one more inning.
Huh? No, one of the other guys could have pitched then. As I said below, you have two innings there if you get through the 9th. The rigght strategic play is to make sure you get through the current inning.
Here is the problem with that. Once you reach the bottom of the 9th, the best you can do as the road team is reach the 10th, meaning Mariano is likely to pitch one of those inning regardless. He should be pitching the first one, to make sure you get to the second.
The theory is that you don’t want to burn your best pitcher in a game you lose. If the Yankees would have used Rivera in the ninth and tenth last night and then lost in the 11th, then he is suddenly unavailable for tonight’s game. Let’s say for argument’s sake that Coke then blows the lead in the bottom of the ninth tonight then Girardi’s decision backfires on him. I’m ok with the move as long as you take it in context. If he made the same move in the postseason, I’d be livid
This misses the point. Taking out Wang did not make sense. He was pitching extremely well. The stuff about saving him to start on Wednesday if Pettite cannot go is nonsense. Wednesday will take care of Wednesday. The golden rule is to focus on winning the game you are in. Yesterday Giradi blew it. Girardi knew that Coke and especially Robertson were tired. This was bad managing, plain and simple.
No, the golden rule is to win as many games as possible. Do you bring CC in if the game goes to 13 or 14? Wang had not thrown that many pitches in a while, and saving him for Wednesday while pitching Mariano yesterday made perfect sense. Taking Wang out is not the issue, putting Coke in was. And why exactly were those guys tired? Relievers pitching one inning can go back to back and 3 out of 4, no problem, or at least they should be able to.
I disagree. Those guys have thrown a lot of innings already. Wang needs the work. Of course we should not have brought in CC. The point is that he pulled a pitcher that “might” have to pitch on Wednesday and cost us the game on Saturday.
And my point is that this is not Game 7, and you need to think big picture- they went into the game with a plan for using Wang, and they stuck to it. They rightfully did not change that plan because he was going well. Rivera, or even the other two, should be able to get through an inning or two unscathed, especially versus that lineup.
My point is that throwing Wang a fourth inning doesn’t jeopardize the season. Its this simple. I kmew it was a mistake when it happened, the commentators said it was a mistake when it happened, and a few minutes later we were proven correct.
Bullseye. Mo should have pitched the 9th, but as Sherman eluded to most managers save their closer on the road, whether its to be sure he gets a save or to make sure he factors into deciding the game.
I mean did you see who Cleveland had warming up? Luis Vizcaino!!! I rather take my chances of making sure we see him pitch and then trust Coke to close the game then to lose before we even get to the Viz
I don’t think it has anything to do with him being the closer. I think it has to do with no using him in a situation that required him to pitch at least 2 innings, and wouldn’t guarantee a win even if he didn’t give up a run.
Using Mo for 2 innings in a tie game on the road is a waste of our best BP resource.
Why would he have to pitch two innings? He pitches one, someone else pitches the next. Coke and RObertson do not guarantee a win either. You need to make the decision based on who gives me the best shot to win, and the answer is Mo in the 9th.
What’s the difference between using Mo in the ninth and Robertson in the 10th and using Robertson in the 9th and Mo in the 10th (if they’d scored a run)?
Some baseball saws are based on what’s the most beneficial. I think using your best pitcher to maintain a tie for one inning in the hope that
a) you can score a run in the next inning and
b) the next pitcher can hold that lead
isn’t good BP management. Calling out Girardi for doing this seems a lot like hindsight to me. If Coke et al hadn’t allowed a run (as Girardi rightly expected them to) this wouldn’t even be a discussion.