David Cone said on last night’s broadcast that Joba was clearly upset about the way he and Posada were working together last night. He thought they had trouble getting on the same page. Joba was talking to Molina in the dugout after his night was over and it seemed pretty clear to Coney what the topic was.
This is nothing new, we’ve heard this complaint for years from almost every free agent pitcher that has come here. El Duque’s fights with Poasada were very public and often occurred right out on the mound. Randy Johnson insisted on Kelly Stinnett and John Flaherty being his personal catcher, even though Torre had an explicit policy against such arrangements. Now were seeing CC Sabathia throwing to Francisco Cervelli almost exclusively, Frankie’s caught 2 of CCs last 3 starts since Jorge came back from the DL. Posada’s a stubborn guy, he doesn’t like being shaken off and pitchers don’t like being told to throw a pitch they don’t have conviction in, especially veteran pitchers.
Do Pitchers like throwing to Posada? And more importantly, is it affecting their performances? Andy Pettitte has always loved working with Jorge, so clearly some do and some don’t. Lets look at a few pitchers 2009 splits by catcher and see if there’s anything there. Of course, opponents will influence these stats more than pitcher-catcher relationships, which is why I’ve never been much of a fan of CERA or other stats that look at these things. But lets just see if there’s anything to this.
Joba doesn’t appear to have much of a case. Hitters have suffered in every category while Joba has worked with Posada, tOPS tells the story as well as anything. tOPS is a stats that measures each player against his own average performance. As with OPS+ any number below 100 means your performance is sub-standard. Joba’s opposing hitters have posted +59 with Posada behind the plate, and +125 with Molina +132 with Cervelli. Opponents with Jorge behind the plate for Joba included the AL leading in Runs Scored TB Rays and #3 CLE, so its not like he faced the weak sisters of Baseball when Posada was catching. Looking at Joba splits in 08 and 07, it appears Jorge wasn’t much of a factor, though he clearly did better with Molina behind the dish in those years for whatever reason.
Run, Fat Boy, Run movie full AJ Burnett however, is another story. His stats have exploded with Jorge behind the plate so far this year, and its not even close. tOPS of +146 when Poasda’s behind the plate, +62 with Molina and +94 with Kevin Cash. Opponents with Posada have been Red Sox (twice), TEX and LAA. Opponents with Molina have been Rays (twice), CLE and BALT. The two horrible Sox starts could certainly be inflating these numbers, but as we all know AJ dominated the Sox last year, that was one of the main reasons we signed him in the first place. Something is different this year as compared to 08, and the Red Sox roster hasn’t changed significantly.
One thing that cant be ignored, the team played its best stretch of Baseball so far this year while Posada was on the DL. Perhaps there will be a similar run with Posada at some point this year, the season is only 10 weeks old and Posada has missed 3 weeks of it. We all know Jorge’s loss was devastating to last year’s team, but this is a very different group. Ask any Yankee beat reporter and they’ll tell you that Girardi would prefer to DH Posada more, but can’t with Matsui on the team. CC’s wishes and AJ performances may go a long way to explaining why.
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0 Responses to Do Pitchers Like Throwing to Posada?
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TIQ IQ
Cervelli should be doing the bulk of the catching. Better defender then Posada. Let Posada catch Pettitte and Wang. Cervelli catch CC Burnett (for some strange reason Girardi never lets Cervelli catch him) Joba.
This is why instead of Berroa perhaps they should carry a third catcher. So Posada could do more DH and have Cervelli catch in the same games.
Matsui needs to be off this team. Other then some pop, he is not the same consistent hitter he was when he left Japan to come here.
He’s clogging that DH spot on a team of veterans that can use some time there.
matsui has been good for offensive spurts for our team this year. he’s been one of the most clutch players for the yankees while he’s been here and plus, he’s in the last year of his contract. chill.
i do agree though, cerv should do more catching and berroa should be replaced with another catcher.
I disagree, Joba should learn to follow Posada’s lead and throw what he puts down. Posada knows these hitters better and is much better at setting them up right now than Joba.
Carrying a third catcher is just silly, no team could possibly need three catchers for an entire season. It’s understandable in the situation where one guy might be hurt and can’t play much but both Posada and Cervelli seem to be just fine. Berroa really should be replaced by somebody who can come off the bench and hit a home run (like that guy in Scranton who is just destroying the league)
The Pitcher is your first priority on any well run team. The difference between Cervelli and Posada offensively is not worth AJ Burnett/CC Sanathia having a poor season.
Quick story. When Bob Watson took over as the Yanks’ GM, his first order of business was getting a defensive minded Catcher. They had (the very popular) Mike Stanley as their starting catcher in 1995, and the pitchers (Cone among them) complained often about him as a catcher and his game calling. Stanley had a excellent bat, but they gave that up for someone who could get the most out of their starting rotation.
The Catcher Bob Watson traded for was from the Colorado Rockies, and his name was Joe Girardi.
BTW-That should speak volumes about where this thing is headed.
I think Posada’s career CERA numbers make a better case for him than anything that’s happened so far in 2009. I think the problem with Joba was that he refused to do what Posada wanted, and ended up walking guys and throwing a lot more pitches than he needed to. If he’d thrown what Po asked for, he’d very likely have had fewer baserunners and gotten deeper into the game.
I think he kind of acknowledged that in the post game interview. I think in the conversation with Molina, he was told exactly that.
I agree wholeheartedly with your observations. Today, Aceves shook off Jorge 3 times, and immediately got 3 outs. To read Joba and Jorge literally were bickering on and off the field is NOT a good sign. To see Pettitte and Jorge having a disagreement in between innings, on the bench, raises eyebrows. To imagine the repetitious “I should have done better,” speech that will come from A.J. tomorrow is just not acceptable. Even Pettitte expressed how comfortable and confident he felt with Cervelli catching. Something is clearly very different since May 30th…
I could not disagree more. I did a post on this a month ago, and the team has pitched no better over Jorge’s career with someone else behind the plate than when he is behind the plate. Burnett’s sample is too small, and bringing proof from two of the most strong willed pitchers of all time is really no proof t all. The numbers show that this is a myth. Joba needs to shut up and defer to the guy with experience.
Mo, who is easier to get along with and more likable on this team than CC? If CC doesn’t like throwing to him, do you think that reflects on CC or Jorge? Also, citing my two examples as disproving my whole piece just doesn’t fly. Anyone who’s been paying attention to this team knows that all sorts of pitchers have been complaining about Posada forever.
Pitchers have certain styles. CC for example, likes to get into a rhythm and likes to pitch to his own strengths. If Jorge wants to attack the hitters’ weaknesses instead, wont do whatever it takes to get the most out of his pitchers and wants things done his way, don’t you think he’s the problem and not CC? If so, why would it be any different for Joba, who happens to be a very similar pitcher?
What this really boils down to is how you define the Catchers role. If you think he calls the game and the pitchers should all just shut up and pitch, then that’s one approach. If you think his job is to get the most out of his pitcher and do whatever he can to help them do their job, then that’s the completely opposite approach. The pitcher is the most important player on the field, he impacts the game more than anyone else, I know what I think a Catcher’s role should be.
Steve, you ignored the fact that the numbers don’t support the argument. Also, where did you see that CC doesn’t like throwing to Posada? Cervelli needs to catch somebody, and they likely decided that it was best to lose offense with your best pitcher on the hill. We have heard rumblings in the past, but if there was anything concrete beyong RJ and Duque, you would think we would have heard of it. I just don’t buy it, and the numbers support me.
Many pitchers with the YAnkees over the years HATED having Posada behind the plate.He’s a well liked classy guy so guys don’t kill him publicly but everyone knows he calls a lousy game, doesn’t frame great and frankly, doesn’t block balls well and is not a guy people (except Andy and Mariano) like to throw to.
Frankly, i think he hurts Mariano also.
I have heard this for years form a credible source (an agent) that I know well.
Posada before the injury was an excellent thrower and is very good on pop-ups but that’s it.
Remember this guy didn’t grow up catching either, he was an infielder by trade if I remember correctly.
Name some of them. I’d love to hear some names outside of the three always referenced. And since the stats with him behind the plate are just as good as with the backups, maybe the pitchers just need to trust Jorge.
[...] this staff that prefer pitching to Cervelli, who should be allowed to do so. And as I detailed in my previous piece, Joba’s NOT one of them. If I’m manager, Cervelli plays twice a week, not [...]