The obvious question on the mind of most Yankees fans after last night’s performance regards the fate of Chien-Ming Wang. Should the Yankees give him another chance, send him to the bullpen, or DL him with another mysterious injury? Let’s here what the local media thinks, and then I will chime in.
From Bryan Hoch:
If I had to guess right now, I’d say the odds are 50-50. Think the Yankees aren’t confused? Check out this honest admission from Girardi, which he dropped after most of the reporters had left the room:
“Everyone kept asking, ‘When are you going to put him in the rotation? Hasn’t he shown you enough to put him in the rotation?’” Girardi said. “Now I’ve put him in the rotation, he struggles twice, and people are saying, ‘Why’d you put him in the rotation?’ He was pitching well, so we thought he was ready to go.”What’s the problem, anyway? Dave Eiland said that Wang’s arm slot is all over the place and that he’s not able to take his bullpens out to the mound. Eiland seems a little perplexed by this, and even though he admits Wang isn’t back to where he was pre-injury in 2008, he says he’s convinced Wang is healthy enough to pitch in the big leagues. But he can’t command his pitches — he missed a lot low in the zone tonight — and that’s killing him.
“He’s got to take it out there with him,” Eiland said. “I can’t stand there behind the mound with him during the game.”
Wang’s next turn would come against the Nationals. In case you haven’t been following them closely, they don’t have the best record in the AL. They have the worst record in the majors. If the Yankees actually believe that Wang is capable of returning to his old form – and they all claim that they do – then how do you not give him the opportunity to pitch against the worst team in baseball after throwing him back out there against two of the best? Does that seem fair?
If Wang gets the ball on Tuesday and gets rocked by Washington, I would be the first one to send him to the bullpen or the disabled list. But to yank him from the rotation before a game in which he has a decent chance of succeeding and building his confidence would be a ridiculous move. If they do that, they might as well trade him, because it will be painfully obvious that they have no faith in him ever regaining his 19-game form.
And Ken Davidoff:
The Yankees, constructed very much to win this year, can’t afford to start Wang not knowing what he’ll give them. Hughes, who pitched a solid 32/3 innings of relief last night, is still growing. But at least he’s growing, rather than shrinking before our eyes.
See what Wang can do as a reliever; he put up far better numbers in that role, even if they weren’t wonderful…..
It’s all a bit mind-blowing. Before Wang suffered his freakish, season-ending right foot injury on June 16 of last year, the baseball industry regarded him as one of the finest young pitchers in the game.
Of course, many of us suspected at the time that it was a mirage. Wang’s ground-ball rate decreased steadily from 63.7 percent in 2005 to 55 percent last year, and he entered last night with a 45.2 percent count before recording three ground-ball outs and two grounder hits.
Firstly, Davidoff patting himself on the back about having believed Wang to be a mirage is silly. While most sabermetricians originally believed that Wang was due for a crash, they eventually came to accept him as an outlier, as 4 seasons is a large enough sample to suggest that he can get outs without striking people out. Furthermore, Davidoff neglects to mention that the GB rate went down in direct proportion with the K rate going up, as Wang added a slider so as to add some variety to his repertoire. The reduced number of grouders were by design.
In regard to the current situation, I agree with Feinsand. Wang should get one more start, coming next week against Washington. The Nats are a good enough offensive team that the results would be meaningful, while a poor enough pitching team to allow the Yankees to stay in the game should Wang fail. If he does fail, I think the Yankees need to find another injury and send him to the minors to figure things out while pitching every five days. His stuff seems to be returning, with the problem being one of location. He needs innings to get his mechanics back on track, something unlikely to happen if he is coming out of the bullpen in the majors.
What do you think the Yankees should do with Wang?
If you enjoyed this article, please consider sharing it!
46 Responses to Discussion: What To Do With Wang
Leave a Reply
TIQ IQ
I don’t think the Yanks are going to be able to find another injury….pretty sure the league sat up and took notice about the last injury we made up. And I don’t think he deserves to start anymore. Not on the Yankees anyway. He’s clearly not the guy he was before the foot injury, and the guy he is now…well, he sucks. I’m not saying you make any rash decisions and trade him away for a bag of balls, but you definitely stop starting him every five days. Into the pen you go.
As Lefty Larry pointed Out in the last article Thread this is just plain dumb thinking. He has steadily increased his velocity and his endurance. I don’t think its an accident he was good for three innings against Texas, that was all he had in him. What he ran into last night was a perfect storm. The expectation for the Yanks to win were enormous. The Red Sox are notorious for owning him, in fact I remember an exact FOX telecast where Buck and MCcarver of all people were able to point out the problem the 19 game winning Wang had against them. If they can see it, it has to be obvious. They just don’t swing at his sinker…ever…as a result he adjusts to raise his pitches, and they hammer them. This was a Red Sox problem, not a Wang problem, he deserves another go against a far less patient squad. And I predict a very different outcome. The sinker was there yesterday, they hit crap groundball hits, and Swisher went blind in right field…it happens….
That’s why I give him one more. What would you do if he stinks against the Nats?
Then I think you have a bigger problem, but even then if its a matter of luck, like a bunch of seeing eye grounders you evaluate him on the basis of that. He kept everything low last night till he was forced to get it up. Walks killed him, and those go away I think against a less patient team.
Didn’t Wang pitch a complete game 2-hitter at Fenway last season? I think they roughed him up in the Bronx, but I seem to remember him dominating them at Fenway prior to the injury.
Yeah, after the retooling Wang convo, that was his big I’m gonna break out my other pitches game…
I agree with Feinsand, you’ve got to give him one more start and if he sucks again then you give his spot to Hughes and pitch Wang out of the pen where he appeared to do alright. Hopefully Hughes will learn not to groove too many 2-0 pitches to Youk in the future. That was a brutal pitch!
If Wang’s in the game long enough to get an at-bat, he may start swinging before the pitch is released just to not have to run the bases.
Lol. I figured he would just leave the bat on his shoulder.
Don’t want to risk getting walked though!
I think Jorge called about 10 fastballs in a row, I thought Posada did a poor job on his first few sequences with Hughes, he just didn’t trust him…definitely got better though as the game went on….
He was averaging 94 on the gun yesterday for the first time this year. His arm is finally at or close to full strength but he’s been jerked around with all year so he’s in pre-season, not mid-season form. I don’t like that quote by Eiland, blatantly trying to avoid any share of the blame. It’s not the role of the pitching coach to publicly call out his pitchers and imply that they are mentally weak. What is he, Larry Brown? I may be done with Eiland. Hire Orel.
Yeah, not crazy about the Eiland quote either, but you could make the argument that Wang IS mentally weak. Doesn’t make it right for Eiland to say that, though.
If so, he’s a mentally weak pitcher who won 19 games two years in a row before Eiland got his hand on him. If anyone is going to make that quote to the media, it’s Girardi, and even then, it’s very questionable decision. That’s WAY out of bounds for a pitching coach.
To be fair, he’s a two-time 19-game winner who broke a bone in his plant foot and, for whatever reason, has not re-found his form.
Yes, but it sounds so much better the other way :-)
What is wrong with the quote. He said he cant stand behind him during the game like he does in the bullpen. I really dont see the problem.
There are two problems, Mo:
1) It’s one of those cowardly, not my fault, I didn’t do it, it’s his fault comments. Instead of looking inward and trying to find a way to help Wang make that transition from the pen to the mound, Eiland is desperately trying to blame Wang and avoid taking any heat for Wanger’s bad outings. It’s not professional and it’s not a team-first attitude. You know what, Dave, part of your job is to help guys take their stuff from the bullpen to the mound. If it involves working on their frame of mind, that’s what you do. That one is clear and unquestionable. Eiland is clearly trying to throw Wang under the bus to save his own butt.
2) This one could go either way, but it seems like (and several pundits & commenters agree) he’s implying that Wang is mentally weak. That he has to stand behind him, or take his hand and do everything for him. He could just mean that he can’t stand behind him, like he does in the pen, too, but it doesn’t sound good.
I dont think he was calling him mentally weak- that’s searching for controversy where there is none. On the other point, I think coaches are a bit overrated. As Eiland says, all he can do is help him in the bullpen- Eiland is clearly frustrated with Wang’s inability to carry it over. Sometimes, it is the player’s fault.
It’s not his JOB to publicly show frustration with his pitchers, it’s his JOB to work with them. He’s not supposed to be throwing his guys under the bus – it’s totally cowardly. Wang has had A LOT more major league success than Eiland has. Eiland should shut his mouth and do his job, especially when he’s lucky to even have one. He’s been an abject failure so far as a pitching coach. For him to be mouthing off about his charges is ludicrous. Lots of guys get frustrated with teammates but you don’t say it to the media, especially if you’re a position coach. It’s stupid and cowardly.
When he is asked, he should just say no comment? That would go over real well. He made a factual comment that didnt reveal anything sensitive. I really dont get the big deal. And I’m sorry, but you clearly just do not like Eiland. Abject failure is ridiculous. As I said elsewhere, 4th in FIP last year with a pitching staff filled with trash.
I was definitely ready to give him a pass last year or even give him some credit for dealing with a difficult situation, but this year, the staff is clearly underachieving. Don’t make it like I’m some crazed voice in the wild with some ridiculous vendetta against Eiland, Mo. Pete Abe wrote a piece just today calling him out. I don’t like guys who point fingers at their teammates. It’s not their responsibility, especially when they’re not doing a good job themselves. Guys like that are bad to have on your team, especially when they’re on the coaching staff – these are supposed to be the mature, leadership figures.
Pete Abe is a staunch Wang guy placing blame somewhere else. I’m not saying you are a crazed voice, but there is only so much a coach can do.
Exactly, and this is not the first time he’s made a comment in that vein, I’m pretty sick of his they just don’t follow through in the game act…he was held up as guru in the minors thanks to the big three, but praise up here has been little to none, it seems like they thank Kevin Long every chance they get, but there have been almost no quality statements regarding Eiland despite the successes of most of the rotation this year.
What successes? They’ve got the most talented rotation on the planet and they have a team ERA at the bottom of the A.L. Eiland has been a failure so far in his tenure. You can argue that there are mitigating circumstances and he deserves more time, but he’s been an abject failure thus far.
The Yankees FIP was 4th in baseball last year. Apparently he was awesome last year, but now he stinks?
Awesome?? You’re holding up FIP as some kind of holy grail of pitching statistics, which you know it’s not. As you know, it only measures homers, strikeouts and walks. It’s not a holy grail, it’s supposed to be utilized as a small part of the total picture. The Yanks were in the bottom half of the A.L. in ERA last year (8th). That’s hardly awesome.
But you know that FIP removes the noise created by defense from ERA. If I was judging a pitching coach, I would sooner look at FIP.
Ack, no – totally disagree with you on that one. It’s a specific stat that only looks at HR, BB, and Ks. Sinkerballers and ground ball pitchers get totally skewered by it, while strikeout guys get inflated perspectives. It treats every fair, non-homer batted ball the same, whether it’s a dribbler or a line drive off the wall. I’ve only seen it used as a stat to shed light on ERA, not as a pure ERA substitute.
I’ll offer you a deal. I’ll say that Eiland’s not an abject failure if you say he wasn’t awesome last year :-)
Fair enough- he was solid with an atrocious pitching staff. However, about FIP vs. ERA, FIP has been found to be a better predictor of future performance than ERA. Yes, some pitchers get hurt by it, but when looking at a pitching coach, I think it is clearly, without a doubt, the better metric.
Right – it’s used (as far as I know) as a predictor of future performance. You look at his FIP as compared to his ERA, and if it’s lower, then you might predict a better year next season (checking for several other variable that may account for differences). I wouldn’t use it as a substitute for ERA, though because FIP doesn’t discriminate between guys who just flat out get hit hard and guys who pitch to contact. It’s not a linear weight tool that measures where all the balls were hit and how hard they were hit. I’m admittedly not an expert, though – I just know what I’ve read on it.
But neither is ERA. If you want to judge just pitching, FIP is a better tool than ERA.
Yeah, but a pitcher is punished for hard hit balls in ERA, because a pitcher who gives up a lot of hard hit balls eventually and inevitably has a high ERA. That’s not necessarily the case with FIP.
I’ve always read FIP described as the BABIP of pitching. It attempts to measure how lucky the pitcher was. Therefore it’s a tool used to shed light on ERA, not to substitute for ERA. You wouldn’t use BABIP instead of OPS or even OBP would you? No, it’s a specific tool used for a specific purpose. They’re something you look at if a guy has an off year or a particularly good year and say, “is this a trend or were they just unlucky?”
No, FIP is intended to be used as a replacement for ERA. Think about it- if FIP says your ERA should have been lower, and you were unlucky, it is essentially giving you a “new” ERA, adjusted for the fielding of your team.
But it doesn’t adjust for the fielding of your team. It only adjusts for your homers, strikeouts and walks. Therefore it also adjusts for pitching STYLES as it gives credit to some pitchers for the WAY they pitch rather than actual results.
Except that for the vast majority of pitchers, the best way to win is to avoid contact. That is why Wang has been such an outlier and a surprise. I’m not sure what you are fighting me on here. FIP is not perfect, but I cant imagine that you would want to use ERA over it to evaluate a pitching coach. If I could invent a stat to evaluate a pitching coach, the first thing I would want to do is remove fielding. FIP does that. Now, are there other factors that it does not account for, such as style of pitcher? Certainly. However, those other things tend to even out when looking at an entire pitching staff. If we were looking at one specific individual who we knew got screwed by FIP, like Wang, I would understand your stance.
Well the pitching has improved considerably during this streak, but I think your larger point is correct…I have not been at all impressed with his efforts.
I’d give him a shot against the Nationals, that’s when it’s a make or break decision. If he can’t make it to the fifth against them, it’s time to put him in the pen until somebody gets injured or hits their innings limit
Well at least the good news is that Phil might be able to go most of the year without hitting his innings limits seeing how he’s spent a week here and there doing nothing
It’s not fair to Hughes at this point. He has pitched well enough to stay and honestly outside of one Wang-esque outing in Baltimore he has pitched very well. Wang does not deserve another start until someone is injured or someone fails. He lost that oppurtunity with his performance this year… he hasn’t been bad, he’s been horrific. I can not remember a pitcher being this bad. Even Jose Veras has pitched better, to trot him out there every fifth day is a joke.
I still don’t think Hughes is ready, he still lacks a credible off-speed pitch. His cutter is coming along but that too is basically a work in progress. NY is not the place to hone those skills. He will get there but he needs to do it with less pressure. IMO Hughes will be a solid #2 but I think he is about a year away. I would love to give Aceves a chance to start, unfortunately he’s become such a valuable bullpen commodity… (sound familiar?).
I think the cutter is viable as the third pitch. He is good enough to be a fifth starter, although I agree that he would be better served in the minors.
I agree with both of you, I think he would be better served in the minors as far as growing as a pitcher, but is there any point where you take into consideration his enthusiasm for the game. Obviously its intangible, but his comments are very much along the lines of please let me stay here, I’ll do anything. I think it would be a rather large let down for him to not be a part of this team. I can’t decide if thats important enough to allow him to fill a need he very likely could do quite admirably.
Agreed – he tends to get injured every year with all the jerking around between minors and majors. Let him settle into the AAA rotation and pitch safely every turn. If he can stay healthy and build up his innings, you can use him out of the pen in the playoffs when the games are really important but we shouldn’t risk his health and development on games in June.
But how much more is gained by Hughes down in AAA? He dominates down there, at some point he needs to do some learning on the job.
Agree about Eiland-especially his self-serving comment. He’s been a disappointment so far.
I see no problem with doing it either way: giving Hughes the starts for a while and letting Wang get some long relief outings or giving Wang some more starts and letting Hughes have some long stints from the BP.
Neither of them has enough IP to judge, and if Wang’s velocity is improving and Hughes ability to get out MLB hitters is improving, I think they both should get as many innings as Girardi can give them.
I think saying that since the Yankees are built to win this year, they can’t afford for Wang to have more starts like these is a bit shortsighted-if he needs more starts (or long relief outings) to get him back to where he was, it’ll pay off in August and September (and maybe October) when a lot of pennant races are decided.