The latest news on Johan Santana has him recovering from elbow troubles in time to start on Opening Day. When news of his injury surfaced, many Yankees fans used that information to justify Brian Cashman’s decision not to sell the farm for Santana. The question I pose is, what were your thoughts on trading for Santana at the time, and what are they now? Would you have traded some combination of Hughes, Kennedy, Wang, and Cabrera for Johan last offseason? Would you do so knowing what you know about the Yankees prospects today? What are your thoughts on the Yankees youth movement in general? Chime in below.
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40 Responses to Discussion: Revisiting The Santana Trade
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TIQ IQ
Just to put my POV out there, I agreed with the non-trade at the time. However, knowing what we now do about Melky and Kennedy, I have to concede that we all misevaluated, no matter how good Hughes turns out to be.
If Wang is out of the deal it is a no brainer. If you remember there were conflicting reports if we turned down a Kennendy/Melky swap. If that was true Cash should be slaughtered. You can say he didnt want to get in a bidding war with the Sox and risk him going there so instead they stayed out and pushed him to the Mets. I still think we had to go for it. I also disagree with the decision to make Cano untouchable in these talks. I would have done a deal built around Cano in a second. Even coming off a good year that was my position. Hitting is replacable ace starting pitchers are not. Cash will say he waited a year and got CC for just money. That is also flawed reasoning because we still would have needed one pitcher this offseason instead of 2. Johan and CC would mean dynasty. Johan and CC for cash and prospects versus CC and AJ for cash is an easy call in my book but that may be because I HATE AJ. Either way that day altered the course of many franchises.
No, it has been made clear that Kennedy/Melky was never on the table. It was either Hughes/Kennedy or Hughes/Wang, with Melky and possibly Hilligoss as throw ins. In regard to Cano, young middle infielders with his numbers going into last season are about as rare as ace starters, maybe rarer. At the time, it was Utley, then Cano, then everybody else. Considering the lack of hitters in the Yankee system, that was the right call. Finally, if they had gotten Johan, there is no way they would have gotten CC as well. You would have Johan and AJ, and have given up a bunch of prospects.
I wouldn’thave moved Hughes and I think his struggles last year wer due to age/injury-I like Santana a lot but I would rather have Sabathia and give up a draft pick then Santana and give up Hughes-Cano or Wang-I would no mind if the deal was Kennedy and Cabrera but I doubt that would have done it. By the way I have not readmuch about Brandon Laird he had a great season a lot of pwer
No.
In year 2, it’s still too soon to tell for me. If Johan breaks down over the next few years and Hughes becomes a solid starter, then Cashman was right. As a smallish (6′ 190lbs) power pitcher whose velocity is already declining at age 30, I’d stay tuned.
From the Twin’s POV, their trade strategy clearly backfired. They waited all winter, expecting the Yanks to fold and wound up taking a garbage package from the Mets which netted them Carlos Gomez and little else. The Yankee offer of Hughes, Melky + was the best serious offer they received. I never believed at any point that the Red Sox were serious suitors for Santana.
If Gomez can hit at all, his fielding will make him a valuable player. Not worth Johan of course, but still something from that deal.
If he doesn’t hit, he’s a 4th OFer like Melky. Smith could have Melky and Hughes and a solid reliever, probably one off our 40 man roster.
Smith badly overplayed his hand, he might have been better off with the two draft picks, considering how well they draft and what they got from the Mets.
Who cares if Cano is a middle infielder? You dont need power at those spots to win. You can easily compensate with offense from traditional power positions. Yes they are equally rare but not nearly equal in value.
And why can we not have both Johan and CC? Johan only makes about 1 million more! Just goes to show how stupid AJ’s contract is. I know its 5 years not 7 but 5 is also ridiculous. Either way, the salaries pretty much offset so I see no reason why we cant have both.
Also, it gas been made clear by Cashman that the Kennedy deal was not on the table. Why do we believe him? Many well connected insiders had that as the deal. It also makes sense considering what the mets gave up to cet him(ie nothing). Its strange that the differnece in the deals is so stark
Huh? Johan makes 5 million more a year plus two extra years than AJ. There is a huge gap in their contracts. And you dont need power at those spots to win, but they give you a huge advantage becuase they are so rare. The reason the Yankees of the 90′s were so good, outside of the pitching, was that they were great offensively up the middle. It is easier to find offense on the corners, finding it in the middle gives you an immense advantage. Also, “Sam,” use the reply to this comment button if you could.
Its wierd that the mets gave up nothing but they were asking the Yanks for the moon. In the very least, before the gave him to the mets for zero they would appproach The yanks with a lower demand. Which is exactly the way it was reported. Before finalizing with the mets Smith called Cash with the Kennedy melky swap to get the Yanks back in it. This is highly believable because it is still better then the Mets package. Which brings us back to the pushing him to the Mets instead of risking him going to the sox knowing the Twins were in LOVE with Lester and thought more of him than Hughes. Its all extremely plausable and likely.
You are misremembering- the last offer most definitely included Wang. The Yankees were pushing Kennedy and Melky all along and would have made that deal. The Mets deal was worth more than Kennedy/Melky, so why would the Twins do that?
Here it is, Daily News:
According to sources familiar with the entire negotiations, after the Red Sox removed Lester, the Twins called the Yankees back and proposed a scenario in which Hughes would not have to be part of the deal. Instead, they asked for Chien-Ming Wang and Ian Kennedy. The Yankees flatly rejected that, leaving the Mets as the Twins’ only alternative.
Yeah, the only rational explanation for that is Smith was under orders by ownership to trade him out of the league. If he was going to deal him in the AL, he had to get a better package.
It makes some sense, Johan was a very popular player and they were in the midst of a (publicly financed) stadium deal at the time. The last thing they needed was a public backlash that could scare the pols and kill the deal.
But most columnists didn’t seem to think that was the case, the consensus at the time of the trade was Smith simply overplayed his hand.
My bad, Johan makes 22.9 million a year for 6, Aj makes 16.5 million for 5. We are the yankees. I still dont see why we cant have both.
Because then people would start to freak out and actually change things. If they had gotten CC and Johan, the outcry would have been enormous. As it is, there seems to be rumblings about some restructuring of league finances during the next labor agreement.
The yankees dont care about the perception. They never did and never will. Its bpathetic to run your franchise based on your competitions complaints. The yanks can spend and nobody can do anything about it.
Not true. They instituted the luxury tax, something that costs the Yankees millions and admittedly limits their spending.
5 million is pocket change. And the yanks had no second baseman in 96 and a descent one in knoblauch the other years. Many things are rare it doesnt mean i need to have them. You are misremebering the facts. Many baseball people had this deal even if you quote me one who did not. I repeat, it makes no sense to ask the yankees for the moon and give him to the mets for zero without lowering your demands.
Go read Keith Law from the trade. One outlet reported what you are saying, and Olney shot it down the day after the trade, as did Heyman. Those are your two best sources for Yankees news. Why would they go back to the Yankees and ask for less than they got from the Mets? In regard to the 2nd base thing, they had All Stars at the other 3 positions down the middle. With Bernie gone and Jeter and Posada getting older, they needed to keep Cano.
The Kennedy /Melky deal had much more value At the time then the mets package and you can argue that it still does. The 90′s yanks needed to be stronger up the middle because they were lacking substantial power from the traditional spots. These yankees are not.
Really? These Yankees have no young hitters anywhere. And you can argue about the value of the deals, but they are at worst very close.
There’s no way they could have had both. Assuming Johan signed the exact same contract, that’s $298.5M over 13 contract years to TWO pitchers, one of whom has had both knee surgery and an elbow flare up within the last six months. Oh, and don’t forget the luxury tax. That $298.5M is actually $417.9M when you bump it up the extra 40%.
I’m sorry, but even the Yanks have their limits.
Exactly. The Beltran/Randy Johnson and Mussina/Ramirez offseasons should display that to everyone.
completely disagree.the mets gave up nothing. They have arod and tex in the prime. More than the old Yanks ever had. They did not have tex at the time but that is exactly the point. you can always get hitting.
And now they have CC- I guess that means you can always get pitching. And Gomez and Guerra were both highly rated- higher than Kennedy on a lot of lists.
If yor argument is its just as easy to get pitching its insane
It isnt- but in this instance they had a plan outside of Johan- CC. So Johan was easy to “replace.”
If that was true we would have got some pitching the last few years and we would have won something instead of having hitters galore and no pitching
No, its not what I was saying, as I said in my last comment- in this specific case, an ace was easy to find, bc they knew he would be available.
True, over at RAB I was handed my head a few times for not wanting Johan.
Everyone tries to jack up the price, when they deal with the Yanks…in the old days that would have worked. Now, we have a new chief in town, as with Frank Sinatra…he’ll do it, his way.
What does one have to do with the other? We won in the 90′s because we had multiple aces. Thats the way you win and build.
gtg mrs. firestone needs the comp
Our pitching was excellent bc it was deep, but we had good hitting too, bc we were great up the middle. It is a defining feature on many championship teams.
Cut all the BS…no body is going to convince Sam, one way or the other.
Bottom line is; we are much stronger team this year, then in the past few years. We have four Aces+ Andy (who can be a very big help), our BP is very good. We have Matsui, Posada and Cano back and healthy. Hopefully Cano plays as well as he can, I am not looking for a 2007 year again, just up to his ability.
We have added some speed (Brett) and defence in CF, have done the same in RF with the acquisition of Swisher and X-Man. With Cervelli in the wings (if Posada) can’t do the job, yes, we are a much better team then the last 7 years. If healthy, we should do very well for ourselves.
Agreed- health is the only real limitation that this team has.
I looked up the careers of the top 10 comps for Santana (from baseballreference) and found that, almost to a man, they were pretty much done by 34, with over half done by 32.
Saying Hughes career going forward can’t possibly top Santana’s going forward just doesn’t jibe with the facts. He’s still an excellent prospect, and Santana may already be sliding.
Really good hitting middle IF are hard to find. BTW, back in the 60s when Orlando Cepeda was traded for a pitcher, everybody that said anything about the trade said the same thing: ‘you don’t trade good young hitters for pitchers.’
Oh, it could happen. I just happen to think that it is unlikely. Santana already has a Cy Young type year under his belt since the trade, and I do not know if Phil has that kind of year in him, at least not for a while.
Look obviously Johan is a great pitcher and he could have helped us last year but his BPIs are in a free fall and I wouldn’t be surprised if he completely collapsed in the next few years.
We have a younger, better ace lefty in CC Sabathia and I don’t think we would have signed him if we had Johan so I’ll take it the way it has turned out. Plus we still have Hughes and Kennedy. Now if we could just have unloaded Melky…
CC was the better option.
No prospects, same contract, and we’ll probably have the same outcome (an ace). Santana’s elbow is obviously an issue and his fastball’s average velocity has gone down significantly since it peaked in 2006 (from 93.1 to 91.2 in 2008). I totally agree with Alex on this one.
Younger, yes. Better? Probably not. Still the right move.